It feels as though the world of work won't let me be an adult

[Lifeisgreaterthandeath]

I'm looking for advice because I can't work this out, but it feels like employers just don't want me to be an adult.. Or to put it another way, refuse to ever know, or use, my skills well and reward me, but always seem to think I'm crap and useless..but I'm really not.

I'm qualified with a business qualification, am imaginative, personable, and results orientated, have a series of roles where I have exceeded expectations, but never seem to get a good review and/or bosses seem to want to fire me, or help someone useless at the expense of me 'to give them a chance' but I don't even earn enough to have the family I desperately want. I can't go on like this, but it just keeps happening. How do I either become mediocre, but promotable, or get the promotions I deserve without getting fired? I can see that despite my abilities being higher than average, I am barely at out of school wages despite the degree. My peers are becoming directors on £80k salaries, and people I know are performing worse than me are getting promoted ahead of me. What is going on?

I know 2 people who describe themselves the way you do. Very good, if not superior, at their jobs, yet never promoted, always overlooked, and have always been targeted by workplace bullies, despite being intelligent and skilled with people.

Both of these women are professional victims who constantly cry 'bully' at anyone - personally and professionally - who disagrees with them or picks them up on their continual poor performance at work. Both have had numerous jobs, always citing their reason for leaving as being bullied in the workplace. One claims to have a personality disorder (Dr Google diagnosis, nothing official), the other is still dining out on having been bullied at school well into her 30s.

From the way you've worded all this, the problem here seems very much to be you. It just seems unlikely that the same scenario, over and over again but in different environments, is always down to nobody seeing your talents. There's something about you that's rubbing people up the wrong way, and the only way to pinpoint this is through honest self examination and candid feedback from others. Have people tried to give you this before, and you've shot them down or flounced?

Actually my higher skills have been tested, which is why I'm confident of my abilities. In one role, though I was underpaid relative to a colleague by about 20k, my results were 4 times hers, and the role itself was more complex as I handled interactions with 30workgroups, with my colleague handling only one. I think the problem is that though I do focus head down on just doing the job, the higher skillset, or presence leaks out.

Care to comment on any of my other questions or suggestions? Do you see anything useful in anything anyone's said to you here? Any ideas you might pursue?

lottie, I know it's not in AIBU, but I get the feeling this is one of those threads where the OP just wants to be told she's NBU and it's everyone else's fault.

It does come across that way, reflexive defensiveness, but the choice of topic suggests otherwise. It's hard to have an exploratory discussion in a spirit of helpfulness, with a person who seems set on defending and proving, rather than exploring, though.

OP, I understand why you've posted this in in MH. I feel very similar to you - I know that I'm good at my job, yet feel as though I'm constantly devalued - and am trying to understand why.

One thing I've learned: I need to listen to what colleagues and managers say about me, whether or not it's true or fair or kind. For example, colleagues have recently been telling me that I come across as a doormat, inviting those higher up to exploit me and to generally take the piss. Now I still believe the problem is the bullies and idiots in management, but I recognise that there are things I can do to learn to stand up to them, and that my colleagues will respect me for learning some assertiveness.

The way that you don't seem to be listening to anyone on this thread makes me wonder if you listen to the feedback you're getting from colleagues and managers...

"the higher skillset, or presence leaks out." What's that?? Having a higher skill set is irrelevant if the job you do doesn't require it. I've returned to work following time out with my children. I've returned to an entry level post in my profession. When I speak it becomes obvious that I have previous experience and complementary skills, but I always say (and mean) that I'm new to and even if someone is teaching me stuff I already know, it never hurts to hear it again and I always learn something.

Leaking 'skill' is not the problem here.

I definitely still can't see why this has been put in mental health ans the OP seems to be dodging any explanation of the connection.

Have you read nice girls don't get the corner office. And also some on MN recommend lean in, although I've not read it.

From your posts I think that either as others have said you have a victim mentality and you over estimate your skills, or you have crap managers and you aren't assertive where you should be.If you can quantify your results as you have in a pp then you have a strong case for a pay rise.

I also seem to be the sort of person that people allow their mask to slip with. This is positive, often, in that people tell me they feel comfortable as I don't judge them, but this also seems to give permission to office bullies to get more and more overt in their 'reveal' of nasty them.

Eagerly awaiting any responses to this... I feel the same in life generally.

It seems being straightforward and pleasant makes some people trust you, but others really dislike it and want to drag you down. I've experienced people being really vicious, and others just would not believe it because they wouldn't do it to them (one didn't realise someone else was present though, and the other person was literally open-mouthed in shock at what was happening.)

So annoying that all the sucking up to management stuff and so on matters - becase some people are just targets for bullies, just like at school. It's so deeply unfair that because the mob rules you are the scapegoat, it doesn't matter about actual skills or how nice you are. All these office politics are so stupid and cruel, surely getting on with the job at hand should be the priority?

lottie It's hard to have an exploratory discussion in a spirit of helpfulness, with a person who seems set on defending and proving, rather than exploring, though.

It doesn't seem like exploratory discussion to me... more accusatory - deciding there must be something wrong with the OP.

Yet we know we live in a society where people make judgements of each other based on their own stereotypes and feelings, don't treat people equally, take their bad moods out on the nearest scapegoat, etc. Certainly "office politics" is a thing - so why assume the OP is doing someting wrong, rather than being a victim of irrational human nature? She might just be the one people choose to pick on, or people don't like being shown up if she's junior to them but more capable etc. I don't know - I feel like I'm figuring out how humans work too!

But it seems odd to assume the OP hasn't already scrutinised her own behaviour, looking for clues - surely you'd do that before posting on here for advice? Presumably that's why she's mentioned being personable and so on - she's pointing out she's considered those aspects.

(This is reminding me of how people have got annoyed on my thread about getting MH help... Having already explored various avenues repeatedly and got nowhere, I posted here in desperation, and people were advising me to try stuff I'd explained in the OP wasn't working. Weird.)

That's an excellent point Kinneret I was thinking along similar lines following the suggestion of a mentor, upthread. A mentor will make practical suggestions, they won't dissect personality and behaviour, or much office politics. What are the chances of OP really listening to their suggestions, taking them as offered and trying to understand the vast unsaid that lies behind them? Or of following the suggestions closely enough that they might help?

I get the impression she is more likely to reinterpret them in the light of her pre-existing beliefs, so miss the point and potential benefits completely.

OP, that's not as damning as it sounds. Everyone interprets everything in the light of their beliefs and prejudices all the time. Others doing this is a part of your problem as you describe it. Some people are more fixed, others far more perceptive and flexible in their thinking though and it would benefit you (and anyone) to move further in that direction.

Active listening, reflection, re-imagining, re-casting the parameters you use to describe things are all skills that require learning and practise.

But element, sometimes asking for help simply requires the asker to grit their teeth and nod and smile through the crap advice. Nobody likes to feel as though they're being ignored, and if the OP really wants help, she'll have to politely acknowledge those she knows aren't helpful.

For example, some idiot at the Jobcentre once suggested that I should think about "a college course to brush up my Maths and English". It was the kind of formulaic advice he was used to offering to everyone who told him that they were fed up of not getting interviews - he hadn't read my CV to realise that I had a PhD. I wanted to shout at him to fuck off but then realised that there was no point: he just didn't understand my situation, and if I'd done so, I'd have been sanctioned and denied any further help. Similarly, people on here don't understand the OP or you at all - so they just given well-meant yet pointless advice. But getting annoyed with them wont acheive anything.

element of course some people will post in an off the cuff way, thats the nature of an Internet forum. Others are cutting to the chase, rather than offering step by step analysis. Again, fine, part of the nature of the forum and potentially very useful if their observation chimes with something for the OP or prompts relevant thoughts from others.

I would share your assumptions about prior reflection and, if not seeking exploration and advice, why post here?

So I too hold out hope for a helpful exploratory discussion. That will require participation by the OP. At the moment we're mostly just seeing further 'proof of skills' which are completely beside the point she apparently posted about. You can't blame people - who are giving time and energy to trying to offer help - for feeling a bit frustrated by that.

And, hardly needs saying but is sometimes helpful to remind ourselves - we can only go on what the OP has typed here. None of us has a special vantage point into her life. No-one is attacking or even commenting on her, only responding to what she has given us here.

lottie At the moment we're mostly just seeing further 'proof of skills' which are completely beside the point she apparently posted about

She was asked whether she was overrating her skills, and for evidence of them.

Kinneret For example, some idiot at the Jobcentre once suggested that I should think about "a college course to brush up my Maths and English".

Ah the joys of the jobcentre! However, if he had already known you had a PhD, then it would be a stupid suggestion. I've just noticed on here than posters often seem to miss vital info. in the OP.

Never mind. Watching with interest.

Occam's razor: what's the most likely explanation:

1. The OP has had a series of jobs where s/he has happened across superiors that want to shove her/him down and denies the superior skills and ability set before them.

1. The OP is unaware of some trait or behaviour that is causing people to think that s/he is not as good at her/his job as s/he feels she is. This same trait/behaviour is the root cause of the lack of success at each job s/he has had.

When I was younger I was quite outspoken and didn't much mind how that was received. It meant that several times when I was 'right', my 'rightness' was not well received (how surprising!). As I matured I learned that being right doesn't mean you have to prove it and sometimes it's better to let people find out things themselves. I also learned to be less outspoken and to have wisdom about the fights that are worth fighting. Now I'm seen as a calm, measured, confident person (I am told - I still have to listen to my own thought processes!) Back then I probably would have been seen as domineering and outspoken with a fair dose of tactlessness thrown in.

OP, can you specify what field of work you're in? I'm wondering if it's a particular work environment that is shaping your experiences (eg academia seems to attract a fair share of bullies and has its own ways of working).

No, today's response about skills being tested was in response to something in my earlier, long post. I didn't ask for proof at all. I made the point that being a manager is about more than possessing a set of skills. OP responded about a role that, from the way she described it, was not her boss's role (maybe it was but she doesn't say that) so was beside the point even in that very particular context, never mind that of the thread as a whole.

Being able to see the wood for the trees and stay on topic, not getting bogged down in irrelevant detail, or pointless arguments, are essential skills in most jobs, especially in a management position.

That was to elementofsurprise.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions.

I am amazed, though, at the mobbing type behaviour on this thread, rounding on me and saying that if I say I'm good at my job its arrogance and that if it keeps happening its my fault. I would love to hear what you would say to someone who has been raped twice, or a dv victim. 'It must be you then as t there can't possibly be two bad people'

In my case I have often worked in environments in which insecure people do sneak into positions where they can bully, because they are either 'give everyone a chance' place and/or both a 'promote by longievity' place, however I attract a lot of hassle in an unfair way.

I think it may be because I think like a mirror/shiny wall when I feel bullying, and just stay still, which seems to reflect the bullying back onto the bully.. Ie I refuse to transfer it to someone else or to change my behaviour much. This does cause it to escalate, but I would rather it not happen.

In terms of the 'leak' what I mean is that good managers recognise additional skills and use them, but bullies recognise them, get scared and attack them. My latest is unusual, because she relied little on the sharing of good ideas I did, and now I have shut down that supply because I realised things I told her would-be twisted, so I stopped being open, she now has less to 'suggest' to the boss however hiding skills and abilities also seems to give ammo to bullies who secretly suspect I am subversive in some way, so I can't win by hiding abilities. I still don't know how to get employers to recognise without that recognition turning into negative heat from some warped boss.

I think that analogy is disgusting and says it all about how you view yourself....

I would love to hear what you would say to someone who has been raped twice, or a dv victim. 'It must be you then as t there can't possibly be two bad people'

Jesus fucking Christ. I'm starting to understand why you might be disliked.

lottie The very first response on this thread suggested she was maybe overrating her skills. And there were other similar posts. I assumed she was replying to those .

The OP is making a logical point, even if the example is harsh/inappropriate.

Some instances where a person is repeatedly treated badly by others are viewed as never the person's fault. Yet other situations where someone is repeatedly hurt by others, the person themsleves is blamed or disbelieved - why is that? It seems connected to the type of event rather than the individuals involved.

Actually I kind of see why the OP chose the example she did - there are a few instances where certain people - including majority on MNers - will automatically support the victim. But most more mundane, day-to-day events that pick on a victim are viewed either as the person's fault or disbelieved.

Why is it harder to believe the OP may be a repeat victim of bullying or whatever, than it is to believe someone who has repeately been assaulted?

Or is it that people go with the benefit of the doubt in extreme situations because the stakes are higher?

People are fascinating and infuriating beings... I feel like I'm figuring out how they work. Sorry for thread detour...