Argh FFS - crisis team judgement

[elementofsurprise]

Trying not to completely lose it here. Just had ridiculous conversation with woman from the crisis team. She asked what would help, usual script, I said I thought therapy. Had to explain TWICE that primary care IAPT won't see me ('too complex') and secondary care repeated ignore referrals and have asked my GP not to re-refer because I'll only be disappointed.
For 5.5 years I have been trying to access therapy. Since I broke down. I was almost there once, but services kept getting cut and rearranged.
Explained this to her.
Her response was "Well, if you're not willing to try to access the services..."
ARGHHHHHHHH
Explained again, I keep goingto my GP, he keeps referring, they won't see me.
Response: "If you're just going to get annoyed with me..."
FFS! Am I not entitled to sound just a tad frustrated in this situation?
Managed to remain calm and explained yet again, for 5.5 years I have tried to get therapy so am feeling a bit hopeless now. Understandably, I'd have thought. Apparently I should just keep going back to the GP (even though it makes me feel worse and more hopeless cos GP can't do anything.)
Pointed out definition of madness was doing the same thing gain and again but expecting different results.
Feel hopeless and worthless. Want pain to end. Want to be good enough to be treated nicely and loved. (I thought I was but apparently not from how people treat me. Don't want another thread about that though.)

[AnxiousMunchkin]

No one is bullying you - they were trying to help you see the situation from anther possible view, another possible interpretation. It wasn't vindictive or nasty, it was trying to help you. You just seem to be unable to see that- and it might come across to some people that you're refusing to see it, rather than your psychological problems are preventing you from being able to see it.

Samaritans are weird and not real? That comes across as pretty offensive OP. Nope, they're definitely real people, from all walks of life, who volunteer their time to provide emotional support to people who need it and want to use their service. It takes a lot of training and commitment to be a Samaritan, there's a rigorous selection and training process. They're trained how to listen so that you can talk, help you explore options and work your way forward. It's not about building a rapport; they're not your therapist, or your friend, they don't need to know your life history - they're there to give you a safe space to express what you're feeling, be heard, they will ask you questions to help you reflect and work through the situation.

If that's not what you want right now (although it seems that what you want MN to do, which is not what it's good at) then fine, but don't label all Samaritans as weird and not real. That's not a very nice thing to say at all.

[AnxiousMunchkin]

Just to be totally clear OP, I'm not meaning my post to be coming across as having a go at you - just trying to help you. Which is all anyone is doing on this thread - why do you think people bother to reply on here? Most of us have our own mental health problems. It's why we're in this board. I can only speak for myself but I imagine that we're replying because we do see your distress and do care when other people are suffering because we suffer too so we understand how horrible it is.

At least for me, but I think for a lot of people, the answers and solutions come from within. No one else can 'fix' me. Medication can help make some symptoms more manageable, and therapy can teach me techniques. But only I can take care of myself, learn those techniques, try to apply them, evaluate and try to alter my thinking. No one else being nice to me or validating me is going to help. I know I have to be nice to myself and validate myself. Which isn't easy. At all. It's a lifelong ongoing process. But it's an internal one- how I treat myself is not anyone else's fault. It might be a reaction to things that happened to me- but how I am now, is in my hands.

[Broken1Girl]

MyFavourite, of course therapy is about validation, reassurance and encouragement.

Keema's post was really nasty, which is why it has been deleted.

People are not obliged to post on here. I think some people on here need to look hard at their motivations.

Element can have an opinion on the Samaritans she likes, I cannot see that she said anything offensive or nasty about them. She may not put things delicately, in the distressed state she is in.

Again, no-one has to support anyone. Some people are not helping the OP, and are instead fanning the flames, it seems to me, and need to step away from this thread.

[AnxiousMunchkin]

I said "it comes across as pretty offensive" - my opinion (I assume I'm allowed an opinion too?)

OP stated "Samaritans are weird"- as if it was a fact, not her opinion. Hence why I said it didn't come across as a nice thing to say.

I don't think it's particularly helpful for anyone to appoint themselves as the thread police, to be honest. Sniping at each other about whether we're being helpful to the OP or not is probably the one thing on this thread that is definitely not helpful to her!

[LittleBearPad]

MyFavourite, of course therapy is about validation, reassurance and encouragement

No it's really not. It's bloody hard work.

[lottielou7]

I disagree that therapy is not to take care of your emotional needs. Sometimes when you've had parents who were shit are doing that, it's exactly what you need to get on a path of recovery.

[lottielou7]

I speak from my own experience of psychotherapy with a therapist who had 30 years of experience.

[jaffodil]

Hi OP,

DBT skills can be learned independently and there's a lot of information on the internet - for example, here www.bipolarsjuk.se/pdf/Handbook%20in%20DBT%20Group.pdf.

Being dialectical means:
™ Letting go of self-righteous indignation.
™ Letting go of “black and white”, “all or nothing” ways of seeing a
situation.
™ Looking for what is “left out” of your understanding of a situation.
™ Finding a way to validate the other person’s point of view.
™ Expanding your way of seeing things.
™ Getting “unstuck” from standoffs and conflicts.
™ Being more flexible and approachable.
™ Avoiding assumptions and blaming.

It also mentions the importance of self-validation. It's something you can't depend upon from other people (as we all have our moods and nobody is capable of being perfect), so it's best if it comes from you.

*Self-validation is when you are able to quietly reassure yourself that what you feel
inside is real, is important, and makes sense. *

There is a section on skills for emotional regulation and coping with emotions, this includes overwhelming feelings like your heart racing. There are ways to cope with that.

Distress tolerance and self-soothing will also help you.

Although it can feel good to get things off your chest, a lot of counselling styles focus on getting you ready to move on from the past. The style of therapy that you appear to want is more like an unconditional love, almost like that of a parent, where you can do or say anything and will never be judged. Unfortunately, therapists are humans too, and can only offer so much.

I've been lurking but have read all your previous threads. The same pattern keeps ticking over. Don't you want something different? Do you think it's likely that "everyone" is a bully and cruel to you, or that there's a miscommunication somewhere?

I really think if you learn the skills and are willing to make some changes in yourself (as none of us are perfect, and we all need to learn these things) then you might find your way out of this rut. But otherwise you may find that services are more reluctant to help each time, because you blame them when you don't get what you want, which is something nobody can really give you (unconditional caring, on tap, whenever you feel distressed). The only place you'll get something that intense is in an abusive relationship. Nobody has that much time or affection to give, whilst also living their own life.

I wish you good luck OP.

[elementofsurprise]

jaffodil Services offered me proper psychotherapy though, but the the srvice got cut. Now they won't offer me anything at all - its not a case of them not giving me wht i want, they wont offer ANYTHING. And also I dont think its suitable to be offering DBT for trauma - i've been through stuff i cant processan everything i've red about therpy etc suggests I ned to process that. Also you need the gnetle, ccepting atmospher to be able to fully remember stff before you can process it. And more to the point - staff should be basically kind, not lie, obfuscate, be cold etc.

I KNOW about DBT. I can do that stuff. I have the books. How do you think I've survived so long? I can deal with distress, and as for validating the other persons point of view... er, i've ended up staying in clearly abusive relationships because of that. I've spent my life looking out for others, doing what they want, trying not to displease them. I don't think that's healthy and want to stand up for myself and stop bing a doormat. I've let people hurt me gain and again and just kept trying to please them to make it stop - but they are never pleased. Like my parents were - I need to stop re-living that. I need to stand up for myself.

The actual issues I have day to day (copy and pasted from above): trouble concentrating, not crying, feeling anxious or afraid or hopeless or worthless, which affects my functioning. As well as concentration issue, it takes so much mental energy just dragging myself through the day, trying to get stuff done and trying to make things better, dealing with memories etc etc. I also dissociate at points (this has developed over last few years, I assume because my brain couldn't take the pain anymore.)

So the problem is I can't hold down a job or do things at a set time or get as much done as I'd like, because I'm struggling with this stuff. It doesn't matter how calmly I deal with instrusive memories and distress and so on (you'll find me silently weeping into the washing up), i'm not actually getting any better or any more functional. I just get quietly suicidal, it seems logical to want to die with no way of getting better, and no way of having a family or whatever. DBT doesn't solve that stuff.

The only time I get more frantically overwhelmed with distress is when I try to seek help and people dont listen to what i've said, make stuff up in their heads, invalidate and belittle me. Sometims I just need someone to talk to, to say "it hurts" and have them accept that. That is not weird, it a normal human thing. But instead of that i have people trying to send me back to services, disbelieveing me etc. So in general I keep it all to mself, only see peope when i am managing ok. I thought posting anonymously on a forum meant I could get some support/others would understand frustrations with the system, without the risk of someone trying to force me back to services. I gave up trying to get help from services because it felt like going back to an abuser - I had to beg and somehow mysteriously please them so they'd provide what I needed etc.

So my presenting problem day-to-day is depression and trauma. I can "be with the feelings" blah blah but it doesnt make me function any better. Im just quietly distressed instead of asking for help! I still get vague and confused and lose chunks of time... I seem to need time built into my day to do nothing. (I've suspected aspergers, but don't think I used to be like this before the further trauma).
Btw your accusation of wanting unconditional love on tap - I never said that. I would just like to once in a while have someone give a shit. Its normal - other people have people they can talk to, or have a hug from - some every day! I'm talking about on the same level as someone who's had a shit day at work getting hme and needing to let of steam about their job, or express upset at something thats happened etc. Just to be able to say "ooh, I had those horrible nightmares again" or whatever and accepted. Not having to fake a smile the entire time. I feel separate from others because of the pain inside, the experiences I've had.

And it doesnt matter how much I self-validate - yeh shits happened to me . (Stuff that others dont even believe in some cases. I know whats happened.) It doesn't make the thought of living any more appealing, or easier. It doesn't make getting through the day any easier. I am doing stuff, part time study (Open Uni so flexible), I grow flowers and have pets and eat healthily and so on. I m trying to do all the right things and have done for so long, but the pain doesnt lessen, in fact I remember more and more. My day-to-day life isn't getting easier or happier, I'm still struggling. It doesn't seem like there's any hope for the future, if this is the best it gets and no-on can help me make it better.

[elementofsurprise]

anxious No one is bullying you - they were trying to help you see the situation from anther possible view, another possible interpretation. It wasn't vindictive or nasty, it was trying to help you.
I take it you didnt see the post in question then - accusing me of lying and so on. It WAS bullying, it was horrible. I'd not stand by while they did that to someone else, either.

Sorry if when dissociating i didnt explain mylsef properly about the samaritans (am i the only person who understands people can lose vocabularly when distressed? or not come across clearly?). Anyway, what I mean is, they just seem so sort of distant. Someone else has said the same thing - think it was oddsockshighheels. It's hrd to explain. They dont seem fully human somehow cos its not a normal interaction because they have to be so impartial to such a degree they can only say very vague reassuring things. And certainly, unlike here, you wont find someone whos had the same experiences and can empathise, or if they can they arent allowed to say. They dont seem like you say at all .

[elementofsurprise]

MyFavourite OP, no therapy is about validation, or reassurance or encouragement (all words you've used in your posts) by the therapist, certainly not in the very early stages like assessment.

That's completely differnt from everything ive read. What about building a rapport with the therapist, feeling safe etc? So you can actually fully remember and unpack the memories and explore them?
I didnt expect that in assessment - it was just that she didnt even speak in a kind voice or anything, and she seemed annoyed (in the letter after too) that I was struggling to focus/dissociating because she'd encouraged me to dredge up a deep, painful memory. It was like i was supposed to just factually remember without feeling.
I feel like i must be very wrong and broken if i am suppsoed to be able to remember painful stuff and talk about it out loud without being in pain or having the person be kind. I seem to be all wrong and not able to deal with the pain and trapped scary feeling and stuff of the memories. I mean, I deal with it sort of, i dont self injure etc, but i cant concentate or carry on as normal or talk bout it without feeling the pain. I didnt know that was wrong. Im not sure how to make that go away.

Do take whatever is offered, but manage your expectations of the therapeutic process.
They are not offereing anything. Psychodynamic therapy was offered 5 yrs ago then taken away as "too upset" ( their words as id just left abusive relationship). Was assesed for CAT 2 yrs ago but she said I was inappropriate for it, think due to the dissociation (this seems really unfair cos I didnt used to dissociate - this has developed over the last few years, so if theyd helped at the start it would never have happened.)

[elementofsurprise]

lottie I disagree that therapy is not to take care of your emotional needs. Sometimes when you've had parents who were shit are doing that, it's exactly what you need to get on a path of recovery

Thats what I thought. Like the therapy relationship is a sort of 'prototype' relationship then you go out into the world with an idea/experience of what a healthy relationship should be like.
And then you sort of go over things, dredge up memories and for the first time ever have someone care, validate etc so it's safe to fully feel everything you've locked away. All those times you just had to survive and couldnt feel because you had to concentrate on surviving. the feelings are there, locked away. I realised that when the memories and nightmares started.
And then when all the feelings are out and dealt with to some degree you pick over everything and see how it's affected your life/affects how you act, and sort of work out new ways and lay it all to rest.

Ta-da! Or not. But that was my understnding of in-depth therapy - not NHS 6 sessions of CBT of course.

[elementofsurprise]

Thank you to everyone for your replies

[jaffodil]

OP, if you can handle and sit with your distress, why do you need someone else to hug you? And the word there is "need", because it very much comes over as a need, rather than a preference. That level of need is hard for another person to take responsibility for.

It is nice to have a hug from someone, but your problems are the same every day. When something is distressing us to that degree, it makes sense to work on it. Relationship support is more for life stresses - things that crop up, challenges like moving house, losing a job. They're not really a healthy vehicle to cope with pervasive, past issues. It can be very wearing for friends and loved ones to hear the same negative things every day. Even therapists can suffer PTSD just from hearing someone retelling their stories of trauma.

As far as you having been through things that others haven't... I doubt that's true. I have been a victim of rape and SA, been in violent relationships etc. and many others have. I doubt you are unique in your experiences. It is totally possible to move on with your life and not live in the past or trapped by memories.

I have phoned the Samaritans in the past about rape and SA, and found them incredibly helpful. They were caring, calm, and let me talk without telling me what to do. What they won't do, is validate you as a person, hug you etc. because they can't. Some of it has to come from inside you. If you aren't even willing to accept that some of your thinking patterns, emotional reactions etc. are part of the problems that you are having, you won't move forward. So many people have tried to explain this to you, and you just blank us, and insist we are the problem.

"Unpacking and exploring" memories isn't generally recommended for PTSD because it just retraumatises the person. It's more about desensitisation and moving on.

It sounds like you're very keen to discuss your emotions and feelings, but sometimes this can put you into a spiral of obsessive rumination, and you get stuck in that instead of engaging with the "here and now" and actually living life.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/08/life-stories-narrative-psychology-redemption-mental-health/400796/

"In the realm of narrative psychology, a person’s life story is not a Wikipedia biography of the facts and events of a life, but rather the way a person integrates those facts and events internally—picks them apart and weaves them back together to make meaning. This narrative becomes a form of identity, in which the things someone chooses to include in the story, and the way she tells it, can both reflect and shape who she is. A life story doesn’t just say what happened, it says why it was important, what it means for who the person is, for who they’ll become, and for what happens next."

[loveyoulikeaplanet]

Element - we keep going over old ground on all of your threads. That is what people are trying to point out to you.

People on MN are not qualified to help you and cannot give you what you want or need - a hug, someone 'just' to care but not really give an opinion or advice.

You do have a particular way of looking at the way people post and becoming upset and annoyed. You can't see that if so many people are saying the same thing; maybe, just maybe they may be on to something.

Until you're able to see that perhaps the way you view the world and your role in it (you don't seem to think you have a role in it, you have an external locus of control so feel 'stuff' happens to you/people respond to you in a certain way and that's nothing to do with you but always with them) is perpetuating your problems. That's why these threads always go the same way.

You want sympathy and care and you do get it. But with it, you get advice that you don't want to/aren't ready to hear and then you get upset/angry. People get frustrated with you and then you feel bullied and that you're treated differently/harshly and then you're back to 'I'm not good enough, why don't people care?'.

That's why on several of your threads, me (under different NN) and other posters say these threads seem to make you feel worse and are not helping you. I do care about you, which is why I keep posting hoping you'll get to a place where you can understand why people advise you like they do. But I can see lots of posters giving up and not trying anymore or losing patience.

FWIW, I see you getting lots of support on MN and people treating you far more gently than other people on MN so you may be treated differently - but from what I see, in a more sympathetic and compassionate way.

[loveyoulikeaplanet]

X-post with jaff!

[exWifebeginsat40]

OP, I have a diagnosis of BPD (along with a list of other things). a diagnosis will do the opposite of open doors for you - BPD is considered untreatable.

I go to a support group run by MIND. this is literally the only support I have. most people in the group have been discharged from secondary services.

incidentally, how are you accessing the Crisis Team?

my GP referred me back to CMHT this year. I saw a psychiatrist and have had a medication review. I'm still not back under secondary services - they are so overstretched. you do have the right to an assessment though - speak to MIND or a disability advice service if you have one.

also, I would agree that engaging with IAPT may help, not least because they offer some really good courses - here we have an Emotional Regulation course that can help with aspects of personality disorders. it's all tools in the toolbox, and saying 'yes, I've tried that' will get you further than 'that's ridiculous I'm far too ill for that'.

see a different GP, push for the referral but also be prepared to do some of the work yourself. if you feel dangerously unwell A&E have a duty psych team.

since my BPD diagnosis I have struggled with the label, and like you I've been angry and frustrated at lack of services. I've been hospitalised twice and I REALLY don't want to go back - it's actually a very unhealthy environment for me and my destructive behaviours get worse. sadly due to budget cuts, inpatient beds are really only for the very unwell.

well, that was an essay! hope you're doing ok.

[elementofsurprise]

jaffodil OP, if you can handle and sit with your distress, why do you need someone else to hug you?
Because being alone in pain day after day is leading me slowly to suicide? Seriously? It's a normal human need. The main thing is that i feel cut off from others, like the pain inside is a shameful secret, and i have to hide from others when i cant smile. It makes me feel inadequate to not be accepted im in pain - especially when other people in pain is accepted.

I doubt that's true. I have been a victim of rape and SA, been in violent relationships etc. and many others have. I doubt you are unique in your experiences
I have had some weird nd nasty expereicnes. Some relate to MH services, which is why im not believed sometimes cos people just dont believe what can happen or the neglect. Its the circumstances too - 'SA' is a simple phrase to sum up and people woud have a certin reaction to that, whereas some of the stuff thats happened to me is obscure so cant easily explain in a word or two - have to explain the whole circumstance and then it raises more questions or relates to something else and then you end up having to explain that.

loveyou You do have a particular way of looking at the way people post and becoming upset and annoyed. You can't see that if so many people are saying the same thing; maybe, just maybe they may be on to something.
People keep saying stuff that shows they havent read my posts. If I've written about frustration in trying to get elp from srvices, what is the point of people sending me back to them? Some people on here seem to just want to blame me and fob me off. They certainly havent been mre gentle with me than others - they dont take in what i say, ignore that im in huge pain, and expect me to cope with no support at all. I dont know how to make the pain go away! I'm told i need therpay, told by someoe else i shouldnt talk about it, told i need some support, told i should keep it to myself. Whatever i do i get advised to do something else.
I have written many times what im struggling with dy to day, i shall write it yet again here:
"trouble concentrating, not crying, feeling anxious or afraid or hopeless or worthless, which affects my functioning. As well as concentration issue, it takes so much mental energy just dragging myself through the day, trying to get stuff done and trying to make things better, dealing with memories etc etc. I also dissociate at points.

So the problem is I can't hold down a job or do things at a set time or get as much done as I'd like, because I'm struggling with this stuff. It doesn't matter how calmly I deal with instrusive memories and distress and so on (you'll find me silently weeping into the washing up), i'm not actually getting any better or any more functional. I just get quietly suicidal, it seems logical to want to die with no way of getting better, and no way of having a family or whatever."

Do you see? How do I make this stuff go away so i can get on with things like evryone else? I thought talking therapy to help with the trauma was a good idea but i cant get any, and apparently i need to be able to talk about it factually without feeling or dissociating anyway.

I've explained in my above post what i am doing to try to make my life better, but it doesnt seem to be making it better. Im just dragging myself through every day. Please could you read the post?

[lottielou7]

I feel for the OP because she needs to be under the care of a psychiatrist, clearly.

I also agree with her that people with BPD are treated in a stigmatised way. I was wrongly diagnosed with BPD some years ago. Since then it turns out I actually have AS. But people who had known me before did suddenly treat me differently and in a way which I found to be discriminatory.

[Costacoffeeplease]

The problem as I see it is that posters on mumsnet are generally not qualified or experienced to help you. They want to help, which is why they post, but the replies are never right for you, which is why I've said before and will say again, I don't think posting on mumsnet is helpful for you - it just upsets you more, posters get annoyed and impatient and you get more distressed

[jaffodil]

So if you "can't cry", how are you "silently weeping into the washing up"?

[jaffodil]

I'm sorry, OP, but I think I'm going to have to leave it there because I'm finding this conversation incredibly draining and frustrating.

[elementofsurprise]

exWife (love your username btw!)
I have tried MIND - there isnt a local one, basically. Theres one in the next town but apparently there arent any support groups - only very focussed 'recovery' courses.
There is a local organisation who i've contacted and will be going to see when im able (i'm having a particularly rough patch atm, and the time when im fuctioning im trying to get uni work done).
Anyone can access the crisis team (I think) in this area - I don't usually but thought it was better to be on record when things are bad.

saying 'yes, I've tried that' will get you further than 'that's ridiculous I'm far too ill for that'.

This is exactly the sort of comment that I mean about people not reading my posts. It's not me saying I'm too ill for the services or rejecting them, its them who've said it! I'd happily go along to IAPT but they wont let me! Gosh no wonder people are annoyed at me if they think its me refusing help. Although I've spelt it out so many times, why do they think that?

I have repeatedly tried to access services - IAPT keep saying I need more help than they can give, and CMHT say I "dont meet their criteria" (goodness knows what that is).

My OP was because I was incredibly frustrated at the crisis team woman acting like it was my fault I dont have a service - completely ignoring the fact I keep going back and they keep rejecting referrals. I needed to let of steam, hopefully hear from others in a similar boat. Instead i've got loads of advice that completely ignores my OP and the impossibility of accessing services. its bizarre.

[elementofsurprise]

jaffodil er where did i say i cant cry?

[jaffodil]

"trouble concentrating, not crying, feeling anxious or afraid or hopeless or worthless, which affects my functioning. "