Depressed DM wanting to look after children

[SoulKitchen]

NC for this but some of you may recognise elements ... Would be really grateful for some advice on handling this situation.

DM has suffered from depression on and off all my life, and anxiety more or less all the time. The only people she is comfortable with are DC. We didn't see her for 14 mths from Oct 2013-Dec 2014, when she had a really terrible period of depression catalysed by an incident between the two of us. Normally, she puts me on a pedestal and I feel almost suffocated by her attention, so for her to turn on me after a misunderstanding was unprecedented. She would only communicate by text for all this time and at the start, called me some horrible things. Left me off her 2013 Xmas card to the family.

Just before Christmas past, she managed to come and visit us, after quite a few false starts where she would plan on coming then send me a text in the morning saying she was ill. She's now visited 3 times. (Though she only lives about 5 miles away, we are not allowed to go and visit her.) After the second visit, she texted to say she soon hoped she'd be able to look after the DC up to 5 days a week. I felt that that was preposterously unrealistic. After her latest visit, she again texted (she wouldn't actually talk to me face to face) that she hoped to take over the childcare 'in a few weeks' from our childminder.

This is the bit I'm struggling with. She refuses to discuss the 14mth period when she was angry, depressed and out of contact. I feel galled and frustrated by some of the labels she applied to me at that time, and want to talk about it and address it - it feels like such a huge injustice to me and I am desperate to clear the air - have felt as though I've been in limbo all that time. She's said 'don't ask me to discuss things I'm barely half-recovered from.'

I feel like it's all a big awkward pretence, her coming to the house to see the kids and talk about the fucking weather with me, when we have this huge elephant in the room that needs to be sorted out. I feel silenced. But at the same time - if I'm being honest with myself - I don't believe it affects her ability to look after my DC, and I know something like this shouldn't be used as some sort of bargaining chip: 'talk to me or you can't look after the DC'. I know that's not right. But it galls me! I also know that's the wrong response from me again, as of course she didn't choose to have depression and any horrible words from her to me were her illness talking. But just to brush it all under the carpet and pretend that everything's back to normal?? I don't know if I can do that.

Any advice really appreciated.

She sounds like a difficult, manipulative depressive personality and you sound very enmneshed with her. Some serious parentification going on.
I really don't think she should be looking after your kids.
I think the depression and anxiety is real but also a thing that has become a kind of default setting for her and a way to get what she wants/needs.
I think you need to read up a bit about difficult relationships; parentification/infantilisation and histrionic personalities and fear, obligation and guilt.

Thanks again, missabc. You don't sound in the least harsh or judgemental! My actions are probably clouded by the way I grew up ... Any crap-cutting-through is very welcome, if that's what it takes to get me to take action ...

Outsself that's a really interesting take. Call her bluff a bit. I'm going to think about that some more - I don't want to kind of play the victim but if something like that is necessary to make her see ...I mean, for all I know it's possible she thinks that the year she was v ill hardly affected me as I'm so busy with my own family. I just don't know.

It would be crap. Either every day would feel like it was about how you'd 'saved' her (and despite yourself feeling pleased about that) or being drawn in to some dramatic and intense conversation about yourself, or her, or the children. Sometimes when you get home from work you just want to say 'hi kids' and relax.

She is making this about herself when it should be about your kids, and about you. Give yourself a break and just say 'no'. You are not saying she can't see your kids. You're saying she cant see them purely on her terms.

Thank you, GoodtoBetter & plantsitter. So - and sorry to be so clueless about this - what would people suggest I do if I try harder to encourage her to talk, and, as I think will happen, she then gets outraged at me trying to 'force' her, and claims that I am only adding to her mental pain and distress? What then?

Nothing much to add, Soul, but just to say I have a similar relationship with my mum. No arguing or shouting when I was growing up, never felt (in retrospect)

Ooops. Posted too soon. Never felt (in retrospect) that I could say anything negative to my mum. And it's still the same now - last week she told me she didn't want hassle from me (I was telling her how I felt about something) - she wanted me to be 'pleasant and outgoing'. Yet she then complained that I don't think about her enough or want to see her.

But she is the only person who can have my DD overnight to give me and DP a break. So I'm in a quandary too.

You sound like such a kind and thoughtful person, Soul. Could you not try to explain to her, prefaced with 'I love you,' that the situation is causing YOU mental pain and distress as well? As someone who has caused my own family no end of trouble through mental illness, I must confess I am a bit confused why she isn't more eager to try and see your side, if in fact she is well enough to do childcare. For me, one of the main thrusts of my recovery was repairing family relationships.

I think she can't have it both ways. Either you have a dialogue where you can BOTH talk about your feelings, or you don't and as a result her relationship with your family has to change in response.

I have to wonder - and I am NOT at all suggesting this will happen - what advice you would give your DC if they were the ones in your shoes.

I realised after I'd posted that i hadn't really grasped your issue and instead was bringing my own crap to the conversation! Sorry about that.

I stand by not doing it though, and I think outsself's idea is good.

The trouble is that you have to take the risk that she will shut down again if you want to talk to her. There is no magic formula of words that will make it all right; it's up to HER. If she can't do it, she can't, but I think it's unreasonable to expect yourself to put up with her doing child care under those circumstances. It makes you feel silenced - you cannot be made to feel like that every time you leave for or come in from work. It's untenable.

Would an email be a good way to tell her what you feel about those 14 months? You say she rarely talks in person/on the phone about things and text is entirely unsuitable for this kind of message. Put a 'read' receipt on it and steel yourself. You owe this to yourself.

Aw, thank you, heyheyhey . Yes. I'm going to take your advice from your first couple of lines there. It's really eye-opening seeing it from the other side - thanks so much for sharing.

Plantsitter, I was nodding along with nearly all of that post. Yep - it's untenable. Yep - I HAVE to take the risk. Yep - it's then up to her.

Thank you all again for your great advice - it's really galvanising me into taking action, and I'm going to text her soon about it. I'm pretty terrified of what it's going to start - I know she'll feel attacked and is likely to instantly put up barriers ... if not a force field ... and I just don't know the ultimate destination - but I have to do it.

[as an aside, plantsitter - yes, email would be a great idea in theory I would LOVE to be able to email her chatty stuff, send her loads of pics of the DC, interesting links, what have you. She asked for my help to buy a laptop 3.5 years ago now - her first computer - which I gladly gave her. She then arranged to have an internet line put into her house and had a few sisters round when the guy came, 'for moral support', she said. Turned out he wanted access to her bedroom to install the line, she panicked at this and sent him away. Now - even though there's another phone line in the hall which would work with different provider, she has still not got round to getting it sorted, despite about a million offers of help from me and her sisters. ]

I don't know, it's hard and I'm probably too influenced by my own mother who sounds very similar. "Depression/anxiety" whenever she didn't want to do something, all quite manipulative and impossible to get around without sounding heartless, but then wanting her own way despite that and always havng an excuse not to get "better". She had a "hard life" so felt allowances should be made for her. But almost stubborn about not improving her lot.
Would have said we were really close growing up although she leant on me too much. Turns out we got on fine when I did what she wanted.
She can't look after your kids if she's mentally unwell. If she doesn't wnt to get better that's her choice. YOU don't spend your life tiptoeing around her and curtailing your OWN life for the sake of not upsetting her.
Seriously, google histrionic personality and FOG (fear, obligation and guilt).

soul I think she is trying to set YOUR pace at which you process things. As she is now ready to reconcile - so you must be IYSWIM.

I would slow it down and tell her that to move forward you have to discuss what happened as its present in your mind all the time. If she refuses (which she will do) see it as a sign that she doesn't really want to move forward or make amends , she just wants to pretend every thing is ok. It's the pretending that starts the rot setting in.

Its so unhealthy to be around some one you are frightened of being truthful with. It was a heavy burden on me and my brother. Unhealthy parents make unhealthy grandparents, make no mistake at that. People don't miraculously change.

i would start standing your ground. You don't have to scream or shout, it may get uncomfortable and she will probslly cry and accuse you of rotten things - but you havnt done anything wrong . This is her doing.

I wouldn't stop contact if you don't feel you can at this point but I wouldn't allow the child care. Your mother hurt you and won't discuss it. She doesn't get rewarded with your children.

Have you read toxic parents it maybe useful x

Yes, would definitely recommend toxic parents. I really don't think this is about depression at all, although I'm sure that will sound terrifying, the idea that your mother might not be who you think she is is awful. I sympathise, I've been there this last year.

good I don't think it is either. I've been NC with my mother for 15 years now and these were typical behaviours

It's been since last August for me.

My worries would be over not being able to discuss childcare matters if any problems arose and whether the DC would get close to her, then be hurt if she pushed them away when they grew up.

Thank you for your continued messages. It's so good just to speak about all this stuff.

I think tbh there's no risk she wouldn't talk about childcare problems with me if there were any. Anything pertaining to the DC is fine - it's just stuff between us she has a problem with. Your last point is pretty astute though, luggage - I think she was/is getting increasingly scared of DC as they get older, and now that DS1 (nearly 10) is aware of war, and torture, and poverty, that's not good. She loves them all, of course, but I think she was just more comfortable when they were all innocent babies.

GoodtoBetter thank you for that. I've looked up histrionic personality but to be honest it doesn't really ring true. She's the opposite of attention-seeking, melodramatic. She almost just wants to disappear - for 14 months she saw virtually noone, and I think she really just wants to hide away with her books and see my DC every so often on her terms. I honestly think her ideal is for me to answer the door to her for a brief greeting, then to make myself scarce for a couple of hours, then a brief goodbye. Any more contact than that with me, she has trouble handling. And it may turn into that anyway. Oh well.

on a different tangent how about a reverse approach whereby you try building up her trust again slowly doing a fun thing with just you two and promise that you won't bring up any of that stuff but that you need one on one time to get to know her again on a positive basis....

Just an hour to go to the park, coffee or something and chat about anything or do something nice. Maybe you need to build up slowly to it; with the proviso that you won't ask her to talk about any difficult stuff but that you slowly get to know each other again on a positive basis once a week or two.... then after a few sessions you both might feel confident enough to approach it.

If you say you want to know her as your mum again properly and it's important that you get on good terms for a bit (just you two; no DCs) and that it means a lot to you to do that? Maybe it's about regaining her and your trust before approaching the big stuff.

I've just realised iI repeated myself in the last sentence; sorry!

That's a really good suggestion, missabc. I honestly think she would freak at the thought of it, though. It must be close to 20 years since she and I last did anything just me and her . It seems so normal, doesn't it, going out with your mum for a coffee??! Not in this case. As I mentioned, she only comes to the house, and only when the DC are here. When she first visited again in December, she somehow timed her arrival to be the precise moment the DC got in from school.I honestly think she was waiting round the corner or something, for her 'cue'. The way she feels she has to live just fills me with so much pity. However, I hadn't considered the possibility of asking her out with that proviso - that I'd promise not to bring anything up. I will seriously think about it - though I still think the idea would fill her with dread.

I can understand why you feel sorry for your DM and her behaviour does make me wonder if something bad happened to her in her past. As it is the holidays maybe you could get her to take the DC somewhere with you, like a nice quiet place where they could run off and play and you could chat a bit? Maybe an easter egg hunt in a park type thing? And you could write her a note or text promising to keep all chat lighthearted.
At the same time I think you need to build up your emotional resilience against her pushing you away again. This is what happened to a friend of mine with a dd who has MH problems that lead her to push my friend away. She says she still loves her dd and will always be there for her if needed but she has had to just get to the point where it doesn't bother her so much if she goes nc.

I believe she and her sisters had a pretty bad upbringing, luggage. I've gathered my GF was a bit of a tyrant and put terrible pressure on them academically. Though of course, it's not something that can ever be talked about so I've really no idea.

Again, the idea of going to a park is like the going out for a coffee thing. She just doesn't. The only way she will see the DC and me is by coming to our house. And it can't be at weekends either, for some reason - she will only come on a weekday. But yes, I'm going to suggest something like this to her anyway. I expect her to come back with something vague and innocuous-sounding like 'Yes, that could be good in a few weeks' or similar. Of course, it will be put off and put off and 'a few weeks' will never actually come. Anyway.

it sounds like unless you take some form of action this is going to go on... forever!! Sounds highly frustrating.

As damaged as she is though she is still a grown woman and you're her daughter and this is an appalling way to treat you. You don't seem to count! It's just about protecting her own emotions. It's actually very cold.

How about approaching her with the idea that you need some form of relationship between just you and her, however small it starts (a coffee?), in order to feel comfortable about the relationship with your little one. Maybe call her bluff somehow on saying DS will be there and then delaying her entrance to give you 5 mins to talk.

Or post her a nice greeting card (with someone else's handwriting on the front) inviting her formally to a nice coffee or something and promising there will be no deep and meaningfuls. An olive branch?

I think if she doesn't respond to any peacemaking ideas you would seriously have to reconsider her role in your life. Luggage is right that your emotional resilience needs building up!!

Well, I've texted her now, asking if she'd like to have a coffee with me one Thursday and saying I wouldn't bring up anything that might upset her. This time, anyway; I know it'll have to be done soon but I'm just trying to give her a chance at normality first... or something. I suggested a Thursday - it's a good day as I only get 30 mins for lunch so I thought that would be a bit of a get-out clause for her.

Thank you again for all your fab advice. Just taking this one action has made me feel a bit of a weight lifting. For now. Things will have to get much heavier at some point soon though, I think.

Just read through your post. I think if you can't talk to her can't be your regular childcare. You certainly won't have a childminder you could not talk to. If you don't want to upset her can you say you don't want to disrupt the children by breaking up their routine.

Well done Soul. Taking that step must have been huge for you. However she reacts, you are very brave.