Mindfulness. Is it for real?

[orangeandemons]

So attended a session today...we spent 15 minutes looking at a raisin.

I feel really really uncomfortable with it. I do not want to share anythIng with the other group members, although they all seem happy with it. I don't want to lie down in front of complete strangers. I hated it. It seemed really really pretentious and up your own bum. Is this how it is meant to be?

Fuzzpig, I have OCD here and very similar to you, related to past traumas and my mental processes would be the same sort of thing too.

It was my CBT therapist who got me to do Mindfulness and he integrated values and mindfulness into our ongoing therapy, they're really complementary... because it helps support you when you get to those core beliefs. For me, say, the CBT revealed deep fears of being afraid and not being listened to and how this related to my experience, but the Mindfulness has helped me with the thorny stuff of being able to "look" in my mind's eye at what happened and also to see myself as whole and not damaged by those experiences.

I had a 25 week course of CBT in addition to the Mindfulness stuff but I do think in some ways, it was the Mindfulness that really made the CBT possible... I think I'd have found it very hard to go through with some of the CBT exposures without Mindfulness to help with the anxiety states and the bad thoughts.

Good luck with CBT!

Thanks! I've been waiting a while now. I'm hoping for individual sessions and group sessions. Apparently the local MHTrust also offers art therapy which sounds great but they are so disorganised

I have actually had lengthy CBT/psychotherapy in my teens (started after I revealed the abuse, I was self harming and had a spell in a psych unit) which did help but in reality it was only scraping the surface - I guess because it was focusing on the abuse, for good reason, but actually a lot of my issues were there before it happened I think.

My specialists are pretty sure that it's the MH issues and abuse that messed up my stress response so badly I became more vulnerable to CFS/ME, it's scary how related it all is. I often feel that I will always be a depressive person, I think it's just the way I'm built, so maybe I need to accept that to some extent - and as we talked about in group, that is NOT the same as giving up.

For example self harm - I did it loads in my teens (covered in scars) and basically stopped several years ago (I'm 26). But sometimes on really bad days, I do want to again. Mindfulness has helped with that, as I don't start panicking and hating myself for failing (which actually makes me more likely to do it since it is like punishment) I just observe the urge and accept it, waiting until it goes away.

I'm really keen to start a course in mindfulness - the basic tenets of compassion for yourself and others, and realising you don't have to act on your emotions, sound very good to me. My DM's bought me a book called Mindfulness: Finding Peace in a Frantic World, by Mark Williams, and it's got me intrigued.

Also, a friend of mine who's a buddhist raves about it and is probably the most chilled, peaceful person I know!

oranges maybe you felt uncomfortable because on some level you're aware that the exercises are attacking long-held defense systems in your mind. Defense systems such as avoiding certain feelings, or avoiding certain topics, or excessively worrying to make yourself feel secure. From experience I know that when I feel very hostile about a technique, and try to dismiss it as stupid or woo or 'not me' despite evidence in it's favour, it's usually because it is forcing me to do something that I've built up defenses against.

The defenses exist for a reason, they're a way of avoiding pain in the short run, in situations where you have no control, often in childhood. And giving up the defenses is very scary, and our subconcious fights against it. But in the long-run they are unhealthy and lead to anxiety, depression, addiction etc. In the end we need to learn healthy coping strategies and stop using unhealthy defenses.

Purplelizard has a good point. I tried about three sessions of 1:1 Mindfulness about a year and a half ago when I was really suffering. I spent more time telling him about all the reasons I hated it when people talked about the universe and woo stuff and how I couldn't stand it etc than I did listening to a word that came out about Mindfulness. He did one exercise with me and I felt so uncomfortable and unsafe I gave up next week, but all we did was sat there. The feelings of threat were all stories I was telling myself because I was afraid: if I get rid of the depression/anxiety, then what?

Fuzzpig, that sounds so positive! I don't self-harm but I have had the most intense self-loathing, obsessive avoidance of looking in the mirror, not looking at or being in any photos... but since I've done it and weirdly with no real focus on that or even expectations of anything I have looked at some photos from a few years ago where I genuinely thought I was the ugliest person alive and can appreciate that I look really well and really "me" and that I am probably quite an attractive looking person. So weird! I'm still working on letting go defences to some of my mental compulsions but I don't feel hopeless anymore and I do believe maybe I don't have to be depressive and obsessive forever anymore, while not clinging to the idea I have to get over it either. I think I'm accepting I'll always have strong and intense emotions about certain things and in certain contexts but that doesn't need to be the same as being "depressive" or having "OCD" if you catch my drift.

Loving the posts on this thread, including yours, oranges. Fuzzpig, I also have CFS/ME and had a tremendous resistance to 'accepting' my limitations, even though I could see it's the best chance of recovery. It feels so paradoxical, I still fight it. What you said, though: the stress causes neurological malfunctions; the abuse causes dissociation from the symptoms. The only way out is further in, as some Chinese sage taught.

I follow Paul Gilbert's The Compassionate Mind as, like you, OP, I prefer to know the hows and whys of my therapy. I engage more readily when I understand the mechanism.

I think there is something in what you say Purple lizard. I think some of it is defensiveness. But I was told you can only undertake this when you are well (which I am at the moment) I don't have any excess worry or feeling down, as I said I approached it with an open mind, but it just made my skin crawl

It could be partly a clash of personalities with your group style, in which case trying to access mindfulness from a book or personal therapy might go better.

On the other hand, the strong feeling of revulsion probably indicates something deeper. Do you tend to find sharing feelings, and listening to others share feelings, extremely uncomfortable? Perhaps even it seems kind of shameful? Maybe your family tended to discourage "too much" expression of emotions? That can lead to you feeling that you ought to suppress them, believing deep down that fear and sadness are "wrong" in some way rather than natural parts of day-to-day experience. Those kind of beliefs about emotions are linked to anxiety and depression, and mindfulness helps combat those beliefs by making you become comfortable with experiencing all of your random thoughts and feelings in a non-judgemental way.

Purplelizard makes an excellent point. It is precisely why I found it so hard - it was going against over 20 years of repression, distraction and avoidance! And the only reason I was actually aware why I was struggling was because of having had lots of previous treatment. Had I gone in 'cold' I would have struggled much more. This was talked about quite a lot in the group - other members were amazed how frankly I was able to talk (particularly about the abuse) but as I said to them, it is only because I have years of therapy behind me already. If this is all new to you, of course it will be difficult and very scary

Same here as fuzzpig, long time therapy graduate. Brilliant at describing my feelings and experiences but it only made me feel worse mostly.

I try my version of mindfulness when I go for a walk, concentrate on the shape of the approaching puddle, look at the pattern of the bark on a tree, watch a distant tree as I approach it.
This clears the mind and the exercise (an hour long walk) give a boost to my mood.

Am not bad at talking about feelings. But grew up in a family where everyone's feelings with talked about all the time, and I found it too much even with family. I'm a private person, but I'm also kinda not interested in complete strangers feelings. It's the way they are all so desperate to share with total strangers. Why? Why? It makes me squirm. It seems so self centred and self important.

I also loathe people who hog conversations. Why do they think they are so important that everyone should have to listen to them? It's a similar thing. I'm a listener not a talker. My mum always used to go on and on at me about not talking as she loved conversation, but its not the way I am. I do think there is some connection between my bleeding heart on their sleeves family. They were far too intense for me

I think the most helpful thing I have learned from reading about mindfulness is the ability to mentally step back and recognise that my thoughts are just thoughts. When I used to get very anxious, that feeling of spiralling out of control was because of my reaction to a thought, which just leads into a constant stream of negative, panicked feelings and thoughts. Whereas if I just 'notice' my first anxious thought and say to myself 'oh look - an anxious thought', accept it and let it pass, I don't have to go into that spiral.

I had so many 'Oh yes, of course!' moments when reading the books. It's interesting what he says about liking and disliking too. That we are constantly driven by the fact that almost everything we see, hear or experience every day is classed in our head as good/desirable or bad/undesirable. Starting to recognise and observe our constant judgements for what they are and realise how meaningless most of them are, can be a profound relief.
Sorry - epic post!

I like the look of that Compassionate mind book. It seems to connect with me without the woo orsharing

I also like the concept of the 'monkey mind'. Our minds are full of the voices of chattering, screeching monkeys, all clamouring for attention. Fear is a particularly loud monkey. I find that I have an almost constant stream of mental chatter, as though I am constantly talking to myself in my own head. Mindfulness and meditation help calm the monkeys and switch off that voice.

I've just started a Mindfulness thread in Philosophy/Religion/Spirituality. I wonder if I should have put it in Mental Health though...

Garlic grump, I have investigated the Compassionate Mind further, and am very very interested in it. Almost all my problems come from being incredibly self critical, although I am the opposite with other people. It's interesting that he says people like this don't do particularly well with cbt as I have had 3 failed courses.

Anyway, I downloaded his thing on a compassionate friend. And I found it ...well ...mind blowing to be honest. I've have never ever felt that sort of acceptance about myself. I even like the way he makes you do it with a smile on your face! It seems to make much much more sense than just sitting their for 40 minutes naval gazing ( or raisin) which I never done much of

So thanks very much for that

Sittingthere of course....

Great that you have found something which appeals to you OP.

I think you do need to find what works for you. I went on a Mindfulness retreat some years ago pre DC which was a weekend of no talking and doing everything mindfully. It was at a Buddhist center and I found the religious aspect very disconcerting and left. It turns out the while it said on the website and literature that it was suitable for all religions, that doesn't include atheism

I'm going to have a look at the Compassionate Mind thing later this week. It sounds like something I would benefit from.

OP will you still attend the raisin-staring event sessions? It might be that you need another way to begin to understand Mindfulness as a concept and would then benefit from the group. Or it might not be the right group dynamic for you, which you can assess, mindfully, after a few more session. You've mentioned that there may be reasons why you find the discussion aspects uncomfortable but that might be a part of your therapy - to face those thoughts and accept them.

Am now going to find the thread holmes is talking about

at assess mindfully

I think I will still go to the small dried fruit group, but may bring it up, and ask if I can go this way rather than their way. I like to be an independent thinker me.

Retreat sounds I bit dire if you mind me saying so!

Oh I don't mind you saying so. It was the way I ran back to the car with my suitcase in one hand and sleeping bag under the other after one night of the three threw the stuff in the back and then sped away so fast I sent gravel flying that told me that retreats are possibly not my thing!

I am looking online at a retreat in Essex at the moment... non-religious with guided sessions followed by campfire cocoa and chats. I could camp to keep the cost right down... but I keep remembering the feel of freedom as I sped away last time.

Now, campfire coca and chats would do me in for sure. I would prefer to barricade myself in my room

Yeah, I think my inner mind is telling me that immersing myself in a retreat is going a bit far, for me.

I think the raisin group will be interested to hear that you are exploring this idea, but then might ask you about why you feel uncomfortable at the group. A good reply, and a truthful one, might be to say that is one of the concepts you are exploring.

I'm so please, oranges :) I love it, too! Thanks for the feedback.