that light at the end of the tunnel isnt a train....stay on track!

[ThatVikRinA22]

thought we had better have a new one - old one nearly full. Think this is our 4th thread now....

linky to old one here

so, here we go....title a little more optimistic than i feel but im sure i will get back on track soon.....not doing bad particularly, just feeling a bit consumed with things....work is so intense. id forgotten.

anyway....nuff of me. over to you guys....
hope everyone manages to find us to say "hi"....welcome old and new.

[LEMisdisappointed]

Nana thanks this ist my second time onmy cit it doesnt seem to be woeking

[SnowyMouse]

I'm sorry so many people are having difficult & unnecessary difficulties :(

[NanaNina]

Lem can you explain a bit more. Do I recall you saying that you were on citalopram and then stopped taking it because you thought you were better? Have I got that right, and so this is your 2nd episode but caused by stopping the citalopram. Is that right? I think people come off meds far too quickly - there seems to be some aversion to taking ADs - I don't know why. The trouble is as I'm sure you know, taking ADs aren't like taking paracetomol for headache. Medics don't fully understand brain disorder and don't even know why ADs work, other than telling us that they raise the level of seratonin in the brain.

I don't think it's a case of it "not working" Lem I think it's about the chemicals in your brain being adjusted to the optimum level for you (you will know more about this than me, as you are a scientist) but probably not related to mental illness, I don't know. This is going to take time, and may well need a raised dose of citalopram.

What dose were you on before, and how long were you on it. Presumably it was successful as you stopped taking it?

Did you come off it with GP supervision, as you do need to withdraw from ADs very slowly. How long have you been on the AD this second time.

How long in between coming off it and symptoms emerging again?

Sorry to fire so many questions at you.....but just trying to get things straight in my mind. Citalopram is the drug of choice now by NICE guidelines, but I think SSRIs probably all work in a similar way.

I have stuck with my imipramine during my second major episode (very different from yours) but caused by coming off them after 14 years (will regret that to my dying day) and they were only "working" for me some of the time, around 80% ok most months but then dipping to 50% earlier this year. I am now taking mirtazapine in addition and dare I say the combination seem to be "working" much better than before the additional AD was prescribed.

I always imagine an old fashioned weighing scale in my head and that crucial balance just has to be found. Don't despair Lem though I have done that many many times. You are young and have every chance of getting better, it's just going to take as long as it takes. The citalopram is "working" for you some of the time as you sometimes begin to feel better as the day wears on. Some days I think are OK for you. I can see the difference in the tone of your posts as they rise and fall with the fluctuations.

Talk all this over with your GP as early as possible.

[hoochymama1]

Hi every one,
good to hear all the stuff today. It makes me laugh and cry at the same time. Vicar, persist with the union rep, and put every effort into moving to another job. You are in the right, but you are vulnerable at the moment so high priority is looking after yourself.
Nana thanks for kind words, same profession as you by the way, I was devastated as GP said I'd be on sertraline for at least 1 to 2 more years, I got myself off it myself, quick, 3 years ago and GP said that it often happens that if people are on it only briefly(6months in my case)they can relapse.
I felt so well! I thought I was better! But being on meds is a small price to pay for staying alive. Loads of love to you, I'd send you flowers if I could work out how the darn smileys work..

[SnowyMouse]

is [ flowers ] without the spaces.

[hoochymama1]

Thank you Snowy, by golly, I think she's got it!

[LEMisdisappointed]

Nana - i was on citalopram when DD was 2, for about 2 and a half years, 40mg at some point back down to twenty, then ten, then five (ish) every other day so i did come off slowly, that was probably about 2 years ago, i can't remember to be precise. It was mostly for anxiety before, i wasn't really depressed. Now i am, i know i am and i feel "wrong" hence feeling i need a proper psych assesment. I also have a vague recollection of having a pscychiatric assesment as a teenager, for self harm, i can't remember precisely. I think it was the typical teenage angst self harm than any real form of depression back then. I have never felt like this before. When DD2 was born, everything happened, i was writing up my PhD, my dad was dying and being mistreated in his care home so i was fighting all that, he died when she was 8 weeks old. I had gallstones - i was so ill, had those removed, wrote up my PhD and pretty much broke - it was like my PhD was holding me together at the seems - then when i let go of that, i just lost it. DP and I got into debt because i had PND which was missed by the HCPs and he was having to take so much time off work we were living on credit cards. So it was everything - we actually have the debts under control now, even though the mortgage is in arrears, its not that bad and DP will sort it, he now has a regular wage coming in. My anxiety manifested as health anxiety principally.

This time it is very different, I got a job at a college, teaching as supply teacher, but i had never taught before, they piled more and more responsibility on but gave me no training or guidance, I was in charge of setting up controlled assesments and there was no one in the department who i could ask if i was doing it ok because my line manager basically passed the buck, she was supposed to do this but didn't so i just had to wing it. I got really good feedback from the students but it was too much, i was being paid for 12 hours a week but i was working 60 hours, i enjoyed it, but i always felt ten steps behind. I wanted to make sure everything was right but i had no one to ask for help. This place is notorious bad employer, even by FE standards and i knew that it was a mistake taking the job on, so many people who i know have worked there left for similar reasons. I was signed off sick by my doctor but my line manager still "encouraged" me to work during this period which really, was the straw that broke the camels back - She basically bullied me and played with my head, because i went over her head to ask for support (because i had realised no help would be forthcoming from her) I knew she would get me out, and she did - she made it so difficult for me, but had to swallow her words when i got excellent reviews from the students. She is well known for being a bad manager and basically passing the buck downwards. Someone suggested I had a case for constructive dismissal but i was on a sessional contract so i let it drop and my doctor advised me that it wasn't worth persuing. They told me that whilst they would write me a reasonable reference they would say I can't cope with pressure - And that was true i suppose becuse i snapped. It got to the point that my DP made me put all my books etc in the car, drove me over and I told them i was quitting. It has destroyed what little confidence i had. Most people would have said "fuck this" long before i did, but i think it was my anxiety that made me stay longer becaue i thought i'd get better. When i went for my counselling assesment my counseller said that a high proportion of their clients came from that college as they treated their staff so badly The thing is, i read this as me making excuses for being crap. I should be a high earner but i can't even hold down a part time job and now I don't even feel confident enough for a cleaning job.

I am terrified by how i feel just now, i have had a nice day with DD, i took her to the pictures so that DP could fix the car, which he has, so he is happy because he has had the day to sort the car and start on the van - I loved our day together, so why do i feel so fruaght now? We might go for a walk as a family - its all good, DP is being brilliant, the mortgage thing is a worry but it isn't desperate and its sortable. I just manage to turn molehills into mount everest size problems.

My DP is blaming the drugs for me being worse now, but i think what it is is that i told myself that ok, i have until after the easter holidays to lick my wounds, now i have to get back on the horse and start looking for a job. We have agreed that I will only look for a part-time job because he is now out of the house at 7 every morning and any worthwhile full time work for me would involve a commute, i don't want DD in out of school club for 12 hours a day, she is only 7 and very young for her age. Although she enjoys the after school club etc and cried when i had to pull her out when i left my job (so i felt even worse) . I think that citalopram may not be the right drug for me this time around and im reluctant to go to 40mg again because DP is adamant that i was like a zombie on it. I get very nervous and agitated with simple tasks, will physically shake if i have to load the dishwasher - this is MENTAL, my previous "career" involved highly dextrous, complicated tasks so i don't know what is going on there.

I have suicidal thoughts, but im not suicidal, if that makes sense, I think DD would be better off without me and DP needs someone to support him and not hold him back all of the time, i wont be able to follow it through, im not brave enough. The thought of nothingness is extremely attractive to me - that is what I am craving, I am not thinking about how nice things can be if only i wasn't ill - does that make sense?? Am i ill? or is this just how it is? Am i just ineffective, lazy? A bit lame? Thats how i feel - i feel like a failure and that ive not acheived anything - i know i have the qualifications but i have never been able to use them. People with no real qualifications to speak of have done much better than i have - i don't seem them as a measure of achievement.

WOW - that was Epic, but i didn't want to drip feed Nana i bet you wish you didn't ask!

[TheSilveryPussycat]

LEM - Underachiever here too - but you got your PhD and I didn't :)

Your post makes it clear that your mh is not at its best. Stop Thinking About Getting A Job for the time being, enjoy your DD, and talk to your GP. A change of meds might help enormously.

[LEMisdisappointed]

Silvery - out of all of the people i did my PhD with, the ones who did better are the ones that didn't write up

Hope everyone had a good day today - we are off for a nice walk now - if i can find the dog harness

Thanks again everyone - it just helps to have folk who understand to bounce crap off.

Vicar - i hope you are doing OK today xxx

[bassetfeet]

Hi all
LEM so sorry to read your struggles . It is HELL . Good folk supporting you here so will be brief .My experience and anecdotal knowledge from others here:
Sometimes it seems the med you were on at first time doesnt work as effectively if used again . The dose you are on can be boosted as you know until stability . One med that is very useful with people I know is Venlafaxine for anxiety and depression if Cit stops working . Cross tapering doesnt seem to have withdrawal symptoms if carefully done and those I know have said it has been very helpful . Just a thought . Ask your doc.
Hang on lass . It does get better I promise. x

[ThatVikRinA22]

evening.
migsie and hooch - im sorry - i did rather monopolise this space yesterday such was my outrage.
i forgot to say hi and welcome to hooch - but i hope everyone knows anyone and everyone is welcome here - when ever they need to talk.

im ok today. Thank you for asking everyone - i cant really say much more now things are official. But thank you for the support yesterday and the outrage helped me stay firm in thinking what had happened was wrong.

i hope everyone else is having a good weekend - weather lovely here. I got home on timish and met a friend for dog walks in the park. DH had cooked a wonderful sunday roast, ive cleaned the jewel sisters out and i have my feet up.

hope you all enjoy a peaceful weekend.

[LEMisdisappointed]

You sound much more positive today Vicar, i'm pleased. It sounds like a lovely evening - the weather helps so much doesn't it. We have just had our walk, knackered now and making DP cook dinner - nice tesco pizza with salad. Oh, and a bottle of wine I figure we deserve a treat - ive done ok this week in terms of not drinking and DP will help me drink it.

Hi again to Migsie and Hooch, I seem to have monopolised a bit too this weekend, but we really are here for everyone and anyone else to vent or just update - its like a safety blanket for me, im so glad vicar started this thread.

I have a general thought/question - ADs like Citalopram/mirtazapine/prozac are all SSRIs - I often wonder how much they would actually differ from each other - a seretonin receptor is a seratonin receptor is it not? Or are there several kinds? Hmmm, i can feel a googling session coming on.

[bassetfeet]

Today sounds good to me Vicar . So proud of you .
Dh sounds a diamond and you have eaten /walked the pooch /sorted the jewel girls house.. Oh and been to work and reported . I am beyond delighted . Stay strong .....you will make changes and those who bully will be exposed .

Nice day here after a few days of acute anxiety and fretting. Visited my elderly mum and sorted a lot of finance stuff .
Thinking of you all . UA You must be under so much stress re your dad .
Bloody awful . You are doing so much . A hug x.

[bassetfeet]

Snowy how are you doing ?

[SnowyMouse]

I'm having a low day, thanks for asking bassett. I shouldn't be surprised after the past few months though...one day at a time and all that

I hope everyone's tomorrow is good.

[NanaNina]

No Lem I don't regret asking for more info! My god what a HUGE amount of stress you were under following the birth of DD2 and the HCPs missing your PND, and everything else that was happening, your poor dad, your illness, writing up a Phd - it would I think be strange if anyone didn't conk out under that amount of pressure.

Your description of teaching in a college (presumably of FE?) sounds horrendous, and my DP had a similar experience many years ago. The thing is of course you don't need a teaching qualification to teach in FE and I'm not saying that these courses teach you how to teach, as I strongly believe that we "learn our trade on the job" so to speak. However with the right kind of support you would have not had such a dreadful time I'm sure. You were obviously very committed and dare I say something of a perfectionist (?) hence the 60 hour week.

The manager was clearly incompetent and possibly burned out herself I don't know, but I have come across this type of controlling, incompetent managers, who are essentially very insecure and so try to control to cover this up, that's if they are aware, which I somehow doubt. You did the right thing to go over her head but of course it would have brought her out with all guns blazing. I'm so glad you got such good feedback from the students, and isn't that what teaching is all about, connecting with the students, teaching in an inspiring way, someone who cares about teaching and learning and it shows in the way you deliver at the "coal face" - I suspect the manager felt threatened by you, and this weak kind of individual will resort to bullying. Best thing you did was to quit. You must hold on to the fact that you got such excellent feedback from the students.

You posted at almost 5 pm saying you are terrified of how you feel and depression is terrifying but you have had a nice day with DD - incidentally you only mention one DD and I thought there were 2 DDs. Maybe you felt better this afternoon than you did this morning - the fluctuation thing again maybe.

Your last para resonates very strongly with me. You may or may not know that suicidal thoughts are very common in depression and they are more common when depression is severe. The thoughts are suicide ideation (in the sense that you think about suicide a lot) but sort of know that you aren't going to do that. I have been there many many times and have gone so far as to make a plan and research how to suceed. It isn't that we want to die, it's that we want the crippling emotional pain to go away, and that's the only way out that we can see.

It's also extremely common to think that our loved ones would be "better off without us" and this is not the case. One morning when I was wailing this down the phone to my wise friend, she said that if you commit suicide you pass on the pain that you were feeling to your loved ones, who may themselves develop mental illness, and that stopped me in my tracks for a while. I still have suicidal thoughts on bad days, but like you know I won't do it. Oh how well I understand your words "the thought of nothingness is so attractive at the moment" - nothingness (that word describes depression so well) I once read on a MH thread someone talking about the "deep dark grey monotonous place of pointless nothingness, where nothing seemed to change and motivation to do anything evaporated."

You ask questions of yourself in the final para and the only one that I think is true is that you are ill - mentally, rather than physically and I think you need to try to assimilate this and accept that you have a depressive illness.

I am sure your GP would be willing to change the meds, but to be honest I don't think the average GP knows very much about mental health. They can prescribe ADs but that's about all and whilst the same is true of psychiatrists in that they diagnose and treat, they do have a superior knowledge of drugs and their interactions etc., which is what you would expect from a consultant. You could certainly press for a referral to a psychiatrist and I think probably that's the best thing to do. He/she may not feel it necessary but I think would be hard pressed to refuse.
I can't agree with your DP that the drugs are making you worse. You mention that you thought "right I have till the Easter holidays etc" but depression is not time sensitive Lem - just re-reading your post, it sounds like you are also suffering from anxiety as you worry about simple tasks - that has happened to me too. Oh yes and depression makes us feel a failure so I reckon you tick all the boxes! Basset has some interesting comments about drugs that you could maybe talk to your GP about.

You ask about SSRIs and again with your knowledge I think you know more about this than any of us and possibly more than the GP! I suppose there are difference in all drugs. My DP has been taking a statin (for raised cholestrol) and has had muscle pain as a side effect, and so the statin has been changed and he has no side effects. I don't think mirtazapine is an SSRI - I have of course consulted Dr Google but it doesn' t say, it's just that it sounds like a tryclic, eg imipramine, amytriptalyne etc.

There is a book you might find interesting Lem "Malignant Sadness" written by Louis Wolpert who is a bio-chemist and he had a very severe episode of depression and in the opening chapter he states that "before I experienced severe depression I was of the "pull your socks up" school of pyschiatry! It's an interesting book and discusses all the treatments and compares and contrasts the psychological model to the medical model. In my experience both are "locked" into their own model. The psychologist who I saw for 3 months was not prepared to believe that depression was caused by a chemical inbalance in the brain and talked of trials with placebos being as beneficial as ADs. All I know is that the meds saved my life, truly, as my suicidal thoughts were very very real and scarey.

Oh there is another book called "Depression - the Curse of the Strong" (can't remember the author) but you would get both books on Amazon.

Be interested to hear how your consultation goes with GP. You need to book a double appointment don't you.

[bassetfeet]

You did a fair bit yesterday Snowy . Sorry you are having low day .
Ah yes the day at a time mantra we live with .. but it helps a little and is true .
Good weather forecast I think for tomorrow . Let us turn our faces to the sun Snowy and get some nature healing .
Hope you are ok . .

[ColouringInQueen]

Hi everyone, esp hello to Migsie and Hoochy - how are your weekends going? Interesting to hear what your GP said about higher chance of relapse if only on ADs for 6 months. My DH (who's been on Sert since Sept) has had completely conflicting advice from different GPs - one who said he should be on it for 2 years, another only 6 months. He's planning for at least 12 months which I think is sensible.

Busy thread today - apologies if I miss anything/one.
LEM I would go and talk to your GP about your meds. Your post above was good at explaining your symptoms and how different you feel now. I do know that anxiety about nothing feeling - and like you its very hard to know if its the meds or the illness. Mine is better when I get a lot of rest - but obv that's not always easy. Like others I would say if you possibly can, to put the job-seeking on hold. That's a big pressure at the best of times, let alone when you're not well. Oh and congratulations on the phD. My brother has one and I know how much work is required!

Vicar so pleased to hear you've had a better day today and really hope the work situation gets sorted justly.

snowy one day and at time - so true. Hope you get a good sleep tonight and enjoy some sun tomorrow.

Basset to hear you had a nice day - and sounds like you've been busy too.

Nana really interesting to hear your experience and perspective on the ADs side of things. I do suspect with GPs a lot of it is guesswork!

I am doing OK. Tired again this morning but again I need to go to bed earlier. It is hard though when you feel better late eve, to cut it short. Anyhow went to church, chatted to some people after, cooked roast, had nap (1.5 hrs!) Read a book for an hour, then joined family and did some gardening. Fairly productive if you exclude the nap/book thing. Hey ho. Kids seem to be getting used to the "mummy's having a rest" line which is good, but also bad - don't want to be that mummy... but hopefully that will improve.

Take care all x

[LEMisdisappointed]

Thankyou Nina for your kind answer - it was actually really useful for me to write that all down. I am lucky in as much as i have a good relationship with my GP and she is very thorough. I am going to talk to her - the fluctuation is becoming a bit of a common theme for me, i think i wake up thinking the day will be a disaster and then it turns out to be a good day. I have been hving a look at the different SSRIs and i can't see much difference between them except maybe in side affects so i might give the citalopram more chance to work - i think its been about 6 weeks. My DP said he will come to the GP with me, bless him, i usually drag him along and then when the poor sod tries to tell the doctor whats what i tell him to shut up :) I don't fancy mirtazapine though as it has sleepy side effects and weight gain an im already overweight. Strangely my weight is something i don't have a problem with - but it would be unhealthy for me to put on more weight.

Snowy, do you think you were on a high because of your result coming off section 3, don't worry that today was pants - ups and downs, we have to ride the storms dont we.

Basset - i like your idea of using the sun for nature healing - it really makes a difference to me.

CIQ do you find any comfort in going to church? I went to church when i was poorly with PND but haven't been for a long time. The nap/book thing sounds great :)

[ColouringInQueen]

lem it helps a little bit to be honest. I think in part because its an hour that's different from the rest of the week, listening to bits of the bible, a familiar set of prayers, singing some hymns and taking communion. On a good Sunday I will remember that I am loved by God even if I don't quite believe it, and have doubts about my faith too. The "church" as an institution itself is not very helpful, but lots of the other people at church are lovely. I go almost every Sunday as a routine thing really but I think that's OK.

[NanaNina]

Hello Snowy - trust the lovely Basset to remember you amongst all this angst on the thread. You do tend to stay quietly in the background, sending out little messages of support to others, but not saying very much about yourself, unless your asked. Is that your nature - are you on the quiet, reserved side. We must remember to ask how you are. Sorry today was a low day - was it anything to do with the Bank Holiday weekend. Did you manage to find some sun today. Don't know where you are, but sun is certainly forecast in the Midlands (didn't bother looking anywhere else on the map!) Sun on a bank holiday..........how wierd is that. Hope you can manage a little trip out tomorrow or a sit in the garden if you have one.

Good to see you back Hoochy - I was hoping you weren't heading for social work but suspected that you were! I hadn't realised I had mentioned my occupation on here (now retired) I started in LA social services in 1980 and stayed till 2004 (all children's services) and last 15 years as a tm mgr for fostering & adoption. It sounds like you are heading for adult services, which I think is less stressful than children's services, especially child protection. I loved my job and feel really fortunate that things weren't too bad at all then, and we had sufficient resources to do a reasonable job. My team were lovely - most of us working together for 10 plus years. We were like a family really, we had lots of laughs but got the work done too. I am still in touch with my team and some are still working, and they tell of being in dire straits since this bloody govt have slashed the budgets of allpublic services. I'll shut up or I'll be off on a political rant!

As you've learned the hard way (same as me) that giving up meds is not always a good idea, and most certainly not the way you did it, quickly! I just don't get why people are so adverse to taking ADs - is it that they feel weak that they have to take an AD or what. I remember my conslt psych after my first episode telling me I needed to stay on the meds for at least 2 years to prevent relapse, and had I done that and come off them gradually I might have been ok, but afer trying and failing a few times, I just stayed on them for 14 years and had no problems. SO I became dependent on them and even when I came off them very gradually it caused a relapse.

SO take heed dear Hoochy (love the name!) and don't be in so much of a hurry to come off the meds this time. And stay on the thread cus I said so!!!

Glad to hear of your good productive day CinQ - I spent an hour or so in our little garden room "colouring in" and thought of you. I had some nice new books from Amazon. I should really be doing something more creative, like drawing (I'm not bad at that) or water colours, but for the mo I'm happy with the Colouring in..........I find my mind wanders down all sorts of tracks and memories come back that had been long forgotten. Very relaxing. Just re-read your post and confirms my suspicions about GPs not knowing much about mental health. I think sometimes it's "think of a number" I have a lovely GP and end of last year I asked if she could increase my meds as had a rough autumn and she did so without hesitation, another 25mg saying "does that seem about right!" When I saw the psych he was concerned that I was on such a high dose of these meds as they are "age related" - forgot to ask him what that means, but the GP clearly knew nothing about this.

Now we are just missing Miggsie I think, or have I missed you. Think I might have as folk are saying Hi to you. I'll go back and have a look.

Oh yes and Ed's lists.

Hope you're ok (ish) Vicar after that dreadful experience.

[bassetfeet]

Church is where I go when all seems lost . Not local one but Abbey near .
Sit and get comfort . light candles . Pray . It helps hugely. Not an active Christian but the history and kindness in the church walls is special .Dont know why.. it just is . The care envelopes you somehow and soothes.

[ColouringInQueen]

basset I know what you mean about the atmosphere and the peacefulfulness in an old church.

nana nice picture of you colouring in! Hmm your dosage story isn't encouraging either! When depression seems so common you'd think there would be a little more wisdom/expertise or at least guidance...

[bassetfeet]

Posted this before but sums up this thread I think . x


Oh, the comfort, the inexpressible
Comfort of feeling safe with a person,
Having neither to weight thoughts,
Nor measure words--but pouring them
All right out--just as they are
Chaff and grain together,
Certain that a faithful hand will
Take and sift them,
Keep what is worth keeping,
And with the breath of kindness
Blow the rest away.

[ColouringInQueen]

basset that is beautiful. And is a lovely summary of this place.