Who the hell helps and how bad do things have to get?

[CirclesAndSquares]

Thought long and hard where to post to get some advice. Have listened to trite shite from various places and so I have after todays meltdown posted here. To give a better picture of the situation I have included quite a few details, if you recognise me in RL please for the love of god realise I hurt so badly and don't judge me for my decisions.

Back Story.
2years ago my beloved daughter was severely brain damaged due to a botched delivery. This happens frequently in hospitals but it is hushed up, between 1 and 3 in every thousand births are born with brain damage, most could have been averted. My doctor refused a caesarian even though my baby had no movements and the meconium was sludge rather than liquid. To make matters worse she was not treated straight away but turned blue and stopped breathing in my arms at a few hours old. An amazing midwife brought her back to life, she was taken to NICU and we were as new parents devastated with our hopes and lives changed forever. I cannot begin to detail those first weeks.

We received no MH support after we came home to deal with the trauma and with a baby that NEVER stopped crying I thought i was going mad, begged the HV, specialist HVs, GPs etc for support - all said we would need to pay privately and no help available. We had/have been to hell and back. Over the years we have had numerous trips to hospitals when DD stops breathing or has seizures, each time thinking we were losing her again.

SO - I returned to work after DD was born. I enjoy it, it gives me something else to focus on (blunt but true) however I long deep down for another baby. What happened to DD shouldn't affect any future pregnancies. I don't want another chance at DD (just to make that clear) but another baby. A healthy baby, a baby I don't worry about, that moves and looks 'normal', that I can play with and not endlessly work on for therapy. I always wanted a big family anyway - 3 children.

We decided we would TTC after DD turned two, then we put it off for a month or two, then another month for baby arriving Sept ish next year. I then discovered my co worker is pg, I am so happy for her but inside just want to curl up and sob, I cannot be around pg women, i cannot look at them or their healthy bumps - blissfully ignorant of the horrendous care we received. Now I have to work 4 days a week with a bump. DH and I discussed and decided we wouldn't wait any longer to ttc - we would just go for it - but when we got down to it I had a massive panic attack.

Since then as soon as I imagine myself pg I burst into tears, I really want this but I am clearly not ready. No one seems to be able to help, GP prescribed AD's but I am not depressed. I am traumatised by the events of my first childs birth. I don't know how much louder I can shout that I am in so much need of support - I tried the Birth Trauma Association, their response was actually laughable.

Can I get better? DD would love a baby brother or sister, DH would love another child, but right now I am the stumbling block. And its not for want to trying to get better. DH needs support too.

Your birth was very traumatic and has left lasting consequences which you have a right to be very angry about.

It is a shame the B.T.A have not helped. A couple of things I would point out

1. Grieving the "perfect" baby is normal. Even when we are holding the baby in our arms, there is that part of us that has to say goodbye to our vision of how it "should have been". It doesn't mean we love them any the less and to an extent you feel guilty for wanting a "healthy" child. but this is all NORMAL

2. Having a second child for anyone is full of emotion and trepidation. Yours is significantly magnified by your previous experiences. But now you have control. You have been there and done it and you can get better.

I think to an extent the trauma never leaves us but for me personally having another was a beautiful experience as it made me realise how giving birth should be. I then went on to have number 3 & 4 and hypnobirthed in water.

I can apply logic to the situation (I know by pregnancy was beautiful and healthy, I adored being pregnant, I birthed without drugs despite induction, I had intended a home water birth but no chance now. Ever) and yet the thought of actually having a baby in my tummy makes me shake, panic and throw up.

So not a lot of logic when push comes to shove no pun intended

I don't think falling pg without some kind of support structure in place would be a good idea do you? Or do you think I should go with it and just see how I cope?

Hello there,
I too thought my maternity care was a pile of crap... non-exsistent, anyway onto you...
To be honest, waiting on the NHS for a decent therapist is quite hit and miss. Go online and look for a psychotherapist. They usually will negotiate the fee. Say their normal price is £50 an hour, if you are strangling they may go as low as £20/25. The initial assessment/meeting will decide if they can help you. You set a goal e.g. overcoming your fear of pregnancy/aversion to to baby bumps, whatever you want to work on, and take it from there.

Also, if you like the therapist you can set out boundries, for example, I always felt comfortable to cantact my old therapist in an emergency and chat over the phone, this made me feel safe. I think this may be good, to have someone who is focused on you, giving you much needed TLC. Your husband can find a therapist also; this would be someone else.

Also, try ordering some stuff from Brahma Kumaris; they do positive thinking CD's and some classes. This really helped me survie depression, or in your case, may just help you to feel a bit more optimistic.
I hope this helps.

There is so much you can do. Get your notes if possible and identify all of the mistakes and then arrange to meet with a consultant to discuss them. I had the option to do that and it really helped.

Support structure would be good but there will be no telling how much or little support will be needed. Doulas are good for pregnancy support and it might be possible to meet up with a doula to discuss your concerns and see if there is anything that they can do to help.

There are organisations that deal exclusively with birth trauma but I found them to be long drawn out processes and my anxieties were never healed until I actually 'got on with it' so to speak.

My birth trauma was different to yours though so I am not suggesting you should go ahead with it straight away but meeting the people who will be involved will help.

No. I don't want a debrief.

We are however haing a discussion to find out what they will do differently with regards my obstetric care next time. At the moment we have been told I will be eligible for an ELCS at 39 week, however I don't really want to go that route.

We also cannot go private and I have to deliver in the same unit as last time.

my anxieties were never healed until I actually 'got on with it' so to speak

I like the sound of this but atm i suspect my reaction is a bit too extreme?

do you get support from the local SS disabled childrens team? for respite etc? you should. be specific about what help you need eg two hours per day extra pair of hands at home or ??

have you asked GP for referral for NHS counselling ? that would be free depends who you get obviously but could be very helpful. they might also be able to refer for specialist counselling.

is there no other reachable birth unit?

you should also be realistic that while what happened to DD is unlikely to happen again,and in fact they should offer you extensive monitoring etc, you get no 100 per cent guarantees with any pregnancy. every scan, blood test - will potentially be trigger for anxiety tho you could learn techniques thru CBt type counselling to deal with that. you do have every chance of a happy healthy pregnancy tho.

No support for respite - it goes to children more severe than DD

Have asked GP for help since her birth, no counselling was available, work stepped in for a while but unable to do so long term. There are no specialist services in our area according to everyone - a friend however say that the services do exist in the community Mental Health tea but you need to have had a breakdown to access them. Also tried BLISS but they wouldn't see my husband and I - one of us could be helped, not both.

No other reachable unit - rural area with PCTs covering wide regions - we also live a mile from the unit which nearly killed us so a long trek to anywhere else. Have thought of doulas (waiting to hear back) and of IMW but tbh I am not convinced about any MW atm given they also didn't help me when we needed them.

I did get access to CBT but didn't find it helped - two sessions and I was a complete wreck.

sorry - i sound so negative but I have been bashing my head on this wall for a while now - and I do truly truly want to grow my family

Circles I'm sorry you are in this situation but just wanted to make the point that quite often therapy does make things feel worse before they can get better, it's a shame you weren't able to persevere with the CBT, it may have helped in the long run.

I agree with other posters who have said to find a private therapist, if you can afford it. They can be life changing, and it doesn't have to be CBT.

The CBt really wasn't an option, I got 4 sessions, the woman had never had children and she had no experience of birth trauma. Although CBT might have helped in the long run, it was too early and that therapist wasn't going to help me in the situation.

I agree, getting the right therapist is really important, and unfortunately there are some rubbish ones out there, but just wanted to warn you that sometimes it does get worse before it gets better, even with a good therapist.

Good luck x

Have spoken to the paediatric team today that look after our DD, in the past they have refused to help saying that their only concern is to DD but they have now accepted that there is more that they could do.

Even if this ends up in a referral to the MH team then at least I will have made it clear I am not coping very well. Our area has no MH midwives, something which I understand other areas do have. Has made me realise I need two sources of help 1)To deal with the trauma of DD's arrival and 2)To be of sound enough mind to cope with another pregnancy

Sorry if I am stating the obvious, but it seems that you are suffering from PostTraumatic Stress from the birth of your first baby. I am not a medic at all and I don't like people "diagnosing" on MN but it does seem that is the problem. You need specialist therapy for this condition I think, rather than CBT (which I know is helpful to some people but does tend to be seen as the panacea for everything these days)

I have heard that EMDR is a good therapy for PTS. Can you google it as don't remember what the letters stand for. I think you will need time to come to terms with the stress from your first baby and the unbelievable way in which you were neglected.

I think you do need to be referred to the MH team as they may have experience of helping you, more so than the medics.

Yes, I think I am. I thought I had 'got over it' but my reaction scared me and I have started to have flashbacks today.

C & S - flashbacks are a symptom of PTSD and there may be other symptoms too, that you are not mentioning on this thread, though I realise you are saying flashbacks only started yesterday. I honestly don't believe any of us "get over" major psychological distress in our lives. I think the best we can hope for (with the aid of a good therapist) is that the trauma becomes more manageable over time and shrinks, and thus loses some of its power.

I don't usually recommend Dr Google but it might be interesting to have a look at PTSD, and there may be mention of this EMDR therapy, though I don't know anything about it really. It's just that there was a very wise MN who was suffering from PTSD and spoke very highly of this therapy, but of course it may not be right for everyone.

I think that you need to get help with the past trauma before you can even begin to think of another pregnancy, but with the right sort of help, you should be able to move forward and in the meantime be kind to yourself. You went through a terrible time and are suffering as a result, which is unsurprising.

Hope you can get the help you need.

I was dx with PTSD when DD was about 6 months old, and thats when the CBT was given, but it was too soon and not the right thing for me.

I do fit the Google symptoms and so I will push for more help. I have today seen my manager and explained why I will find it so hard to work with coworker who is pg, he has agreed that we can try to find solutions to minimise the impact on me until she goes onto maternity leave. It was very good he was so understanding - I think people are often more willing to help me that I give credit for. Our DD's birth was a great shock to many people, esp as I was youngm fit and healthy, no risk factors at all.

NanaNina thank you for your help

I did have flashbacks and nightmares also when DD was younger, but they have only started again since we discussed having another baby.

C & S - I wasn't going to mention nightmares in case it worried you more, but as you now they are another symptom of PTSD. So glad your manager has been helpful - are you able to say what kind of work you do, though I am assuming it is nothing to do with children.

I think CBT for this kind of psychological trauma is not appropriate at all, as you have discovered. The one that seems to have the best outcome is this EMDR that I mentioned. Eye movement desensitisation (forgot what the R means) but you can google it. This therapy is specifically aimed at pyschological trauma of any sort. Thing is I am pretty sure it won't be available on the NHS - can you afford to pay for private therapy - usually £50 per hour dependent on where you live.

It's interesting that you experienced the symptoms of PTSD after DD was born, but they went away, and I think that is a very good sign, as it suggests that your PTSD was probably mild in nature. However like many forms of emotional distress that we think we are "over" they can come back and hit us again when we least expect it. I think we think some traumatic things are buried but as soon as the top soil is raked away there they are, not buried at all.

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that you need help with PTSD before you can even contemplate another pregnancy, even though I know you so want another child. I think the notion of offering CBT to someone with PTSD makes no sense at all and I think that medics know very little about therapy.

Really hope you can find the therapy that you need. The way ahead might be easier if you can decide to put the next pregnancy "on hold" in the sense of taking the pressure from you, while you begin to heal from the trauma of the birth of your first child. Women who have terrible PND with first baby, often have no trouble with 2nd pregnancies, but I think mental health is so complex and not really understood by the medics that there are no certainties. Mind I suppose this is true of physical illness too.

Sending warm wishes NNx

Thank you NN, I hope that eth symptoms are mild however I have a lot on my plate much of the time with work and with DD's needs, I am extremely good at burying emotion and so I am not surprised that this has come to the surface again. I am surprised by the strength of the emotion, the nightmares, panicking feeling, insomnia after the nightmares. My DH has confessed this morning that he has also begun to suffer from flashbacks so its fair to say that TTC is on the very back burner.

I can afford a little therapy but not longer term. I am waiting for the MH team to get back to me about what they may be able to help with, I have also had some contact with the HV.

Here's some information about PTSD on the MIND website.

The CBT therapist was clearly not the right person for you, but that's not to say it wouldn't help with a different therapist. As the MIND link says, there is "Trauma-focused CBT" which has been specially developed to help people with trauma. EMDR and CBT are both recommended by NICE.

Circles I had ptsd after ds was born and had emdr on nhs. One session made the most enormous difference, I could not believe it, the terror just was not there the next time I was confronted with pregnancy/birth/newborns. Sorry I don't have much time atm, must sort out ds bath and bed but hopefully will be back on later tonight.

pm me if you have any qus. Take care.

Tudor Jess - your comment is interesting as I hadn't realised there was "trauma focused CBT". DoubleYew - so glad to hear it is possible to get EMDR on NHS, and wonder if this depends on the particular Primary Care Trust. I am sure Circles will be really interested in your experience.

The MH thread on MN is brill and has got me through many a dark hour.

Hello, back again. I feel asleep with ds last night!

Yes unfortunately I think it does depends where you live whether it is available on the NHS. I was refered by gp for assessment by mental health unit and then to a CPN who specialised in PTSD, not just birth trauma but also people in car accidents etc. She said I was textbook, although I didn't have flashbacks, which is the most common symptom. But what you say about your reaction to your pregnant colleague seems very familiar to me. I agree it is not like being depressed, ad are unlikely to help. I've not heard of trauma focused CBT but I felt beyond being able to control my reactions. I knew that the way I was feeling / behaving was severely strange and that was partly what was so frightening, being out of control.

My story is a bit different in that my ds is basically fine. He has some speech delay and some odd behaviour that could or could not be related to his birth. But there was a lot of panic (also an induction interestingly) and no-one explained to me what was going on. My contractions were so painful I could not remember how to breathe (I know sounds ridiculous but I could not remember which way was in and which way out as the pain was so all consuming) nevermind find out what was happening. I thought he was dead and my responses got stuck on 100% panic and terror. They told me he was fine actually once he was born but because the labour had been such an awful experience (ward was too busy) I did not trust them by then.

I was convinced he was going to die. In fact sometimes I would check he was breathing (roughly every 18 seconds!) and even though he was clearly alive I would worry he had infact died previously and I had 'missed' it. I also thought if he went for more than 3 hours without a feed he would die on the spot at 3hrs 1 minute. Bonkers I know! But I knew it was odd at the time as well and I figured this must be more than normal pfb-ism. It did not matter how many people told me he was fine, I knew different.

I am also the type of person who is very good at blocking out painful emotions and it turns out that is not so good for you as it can all burst through and overload you.

The therapy comes in slightly different forms. What I had was headphones with repetative tones. I was very eye-rolly when she explained it but I felt I'd give anything a try. So you talk about the worst bit of what happened, your strongest emotion and where in your body you feel it. Then put on headphones and listen to the tones while thinking about it. She said don't concentrate on the noise, just let it wash over you like a background noise. And talk some more and repeat a few more times.

And honestly after one session I had a massive improvement. I overheard someone talking about a friend just going in to labour. Usually I would do anything to get away. We were in a swimming class and the previous time it had happened I honestly wanted to climb out of the pool and run out of the building in my swimming costume! This time I prepared myself for the physical panic and there was nothing, just a normal person's 'meh' reaction.

Sorry this is so epic! I really think you should push for emdr even if its asking your gp to refer you out of your area. It is not just for your health but also your dd's and dh's. Think what the consequences could be if you did get pregnant again without getting this sorted. Sorry I know that sounds callous but this is the argument you need to present to your gp if you have already tried cbt. Change gps if they don't help. Print off Nice guidelines, get statements from any professionals to support your case. If you can afford private treatment I think there is a chance even a few sessions could help, I really hope so.

Thank you everyone for your responses, DoubleYew I was also utterly paranoid my DD was going to de in her sleep, she slept ON me for the first 16months as I could not leave the room, leaving her at nursery was tremendously difficult - but also in a way very good because it forced me to adapt. I should add that on more than one occasion DD has has nighttime seizures and its only by lying next to her that I have been able to call 999 in time.

I have had a busy few days. I have been visited by a new HV who was a MW and who specialised in traumatic labour & MH. She is no longer registered as a MW but her experience and kindness have already made me feel a huge lot better. I think sometimes just being able to put your hand up and say that you are overwhelmed and having someone say back to you that they will listen, that they recognise that it is very tough, but that it WILL get better.

I think I know where I need to go from here, it sounds total bollocks a bit wet to say that I need to give myself permission to move on, to do what makes us happy as a family, the three of us, not our whole entire family, every man and his dog, my work, my funding budget, my garden, the past history of DD. Just the three of us. And I have made peace with what I would most regret if I didn't do it.

And today is the start of a new chapter in our lives.