What could be different in mental health care, what helps, and what have you found to be useful reading?

[OwFriggingOw]

First off - this is a thread inspired by another thread - not about another thread.

I am a lecturer who teaches mainly MH nursing students, but also Adult, Child and Learning Disability field nurses about MH, and also occasionally medical students. I have no agenda for this thread bar a genuine desire to listen, share ideas, and have an open discussion about what is helpful / less so. I worked in NHS MH for 13 odd years.

In case anyone links the other threads that inspired this thread - I have been comissioned to edit a book about people's experiences (service users and carers / family / friends) within MH services and with MH issues. NONE OF THE POSTS HERE WILL BE USED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM FOR THIS BOOK. You have my ABSOLUTE word on that. Similarly, NONE of the posts here will be used in any of my teaching.

My aim in starting this stems from several PM's and several on-thread comments about how this would be useful/ I hope it can be a helpful, supportive and productive meeting place for thoughts and ideas about what people have found helpful with regards MH care / services / support (statutory and non statutory) and what has been less helpful. Most importantly with regards the less helpful - what can be done differently?

And - beacuse I like books - maybe we can share reading ideas :)

Would it be helpful if I shared parts of my long thread from earlier regarding what I see as needed, without any other details from the thread?

"service users" can be "professional".
But they are not classed in RL as a professional.Partly because they would not have had training.
Not that all professionals in RL can be trusted.

amillion, so where does that leave new posters? a long posting history does not mean that you are any more trustworthy than anybody else.

I for one was not lured to post so I would be heard by a " professional" etc ... in fact I think I was the poster to suggest a new thread where Mners could share suggestions for improving our access to / experiences of mh services etc -as there was an avalanche of posts that afternoon , others may well have said the same idea & gone unnoticed ... not fair to only blame Ow. It is even more positive & constructive IMO that we are also sharing strategies for self-help .

"I have and I am proud of it.
To validate would be to shamefully play with people's minds
"

you are proud of acting like this? seriously? good god

Thank you for your very clear post Ow - I agree you have been very careful in all the areas you mention < inarticulate >
Thank you for your exellent recommendations .

Aesop --
You cannot read GB's mind -- yet another example of the staggering hubris that has gone unquestioned here.

All you can read is her words. GB explicitly mentioned the 'I Believe You ' campaign. She explicitly sees this thread and the other as a therapeutic exercise.

None of the so-called professionals here have cautioned that this is not what this thread is for which strongly indicates that this is in fact how the 'professionals' here see the thread and none of the so called professionals have cautioned that general advice should not be taken as directed at one specific person.

All care has been thrown to the wind.

It is disgraceful.

"service users" can be "professional".
But they are not classed in RL as a professional.Partly because they would not have had training.
Not that all professionals in RL can be trusted.

oh dear. there are plenty of people who have been in the mental health system who ARE qualified and ALSO work in the mental health field amillion. or are you implying that only people who have never used the services can work in mental health? you are talking rubbish

If I didn't know better, Math, I would assume you had absolutely no clue as to how peer-to-peer support works. I don't need a professional to validate (without scare quotes) my experience, I just need someone who doesn't tell me I didn't have that experience!

Million, you missed the point, I think, that MH professionals also use MH services.

Aesop --
You cannot read GB's mind -- yet another example of the staggering hubris that has gone unquestioned here.

nope i cannpt which is why used the GUESSED and also said sorry to gb if i was wrong. you are nitpicking

"She explicitly sees this thread and the other as a therapeutic exercise. "

good, i am glad. others have said the same.

"None of the so-called professionals here have cautioned that this is not what this thread is for"

bollocks math. this thread is therapeutic because people are talking to others who have BEEN there, some of whom have given techniques and advice themselves. which is what it is about here on mn on every thread

ow i hope that you come back

Thanks Amillion - no, not learned for any professional experience / way but absolutely learned about the problems that can occur on threads like this, and why I shouldn't have posted in parts the way I have done. I accept that and will take it on board in the future. I can't undo how I've posted here, and I definately haven't used anyone for personal or professional gain (bar the links I will read) - I really haven't. I really hoped this thread would be useful and positive in terms of reflecting positive experiences and resources etc, as well as those that are less positive. That's all I wanted for the thread.

aesop,a long posting history mean that you can look at them,examine them,get a feel for them,for their lives,and even if you have plenty of time,their perspective on life.No,it does not mean you can trust them for sure,but is like when you have spent a long time with a person in RL,you get to know where they are coming from.
I will use maryz as an example.She is a prolific poster,i do not know her personally,but what she posts is consistent.So if say,one day,one of her older children posted using her username,I for one would probably be able to tell that it wasnt her.Or if she was ill one day and posted oddly,I and several others might be able tell that something was wrong.
Thats how a long posting history can help.

" Dissatisfaction with services is almost certainly always a symptom of illness."

DID SOMEONE ACTUALLY SAY THIS ON THIS THREAD??? I cant find the original - but if they did that is one of the most offensive things I have ever read.

There is such a load of old rubbish being talked at times on this thread. Of course we have no idea whether anyone is qualified or not. I read some advice from someone claiming to be a lawyer on here the other day. Seemed to make sense - but to be fair he/she could be a 13 yr yoof having a laugh - how do i know?? Its an internet forum - of course we dont know. Am i missing something here - how is that any different on this thread than it is anywhere else on MN.

Of course people are vulnerable here. But so are desperately worried pregnant women who have some bad news from a scan. Or a woman who has just been told she has cancer. People come on to advise claiming to be midwives/drs/ surgeons etc. Generally we accept them at face value. But we dont KNOW.

If someone comes on here saying that they are suicidal, in severe distress or at risk of hurting themselves or anyone else and someone comes on saying 'i think you need to take some vitamin C' THEN people need to step in an say 'Go to AandE and get some help. Other than that I cant see why a discussion shouldnt be allowed to continue.

When MN had the appeal to improve treatment of women who had miscarriages no one jumped in to say 'but thats only YOUR experience - you cant apply that to anyone else' Everyone's experience is valid.

a counsellor has to have therapy themselves in order to be registered and also has to continue in supervision. there are plenty who are high up in mind (for example) who have been through the system or who are currently in the system and working. there are plenty who work in mh who are on antidepressants and other drugs to stay stable. the prejudice and ignorance on this thread is mindblowing.

'i wish you would stop hounding ow. i wish you would accept mnhq post. can you not take it up with them instead of creating this awfulness on a thread that is intended to support people?'

Of course you do.

I suspect I have pricked your comfy little bubble here, and disturbed the arrogant little ego trip"

nope. i find bullying ugly. very. but luckily it is transparent.

"I will challenge what she has done here, and what other alleged professionals are doing here as long as it takes."

go for it. you won't achieve anything other than making yourself look pretty nasty.

"aesop,a long posting history mean that you can look at them,examine them,get a feel for them,for their lives,and even if you have plenty of time,their perspective on life"

yep amillion. and it could all be bollocks.

"She explicitly sees this thread and the other as a therapeutic exercise. "

good, i am glad. others have said the same.

MNHQ are you paying attention here?

A trusting individual with mental health problems has been validated in the therapeutic sense by professionals here, who are now claiming that therapeutic validation has been equally provided by non-professionals.

They have not intervened to stop non-professionals engaging in similar therapeutic validation or reminded anyone that providing therapeutic services without the necessary qualification and professional accreditation is to say the least a highly questionable practice.

Most worrying of all, they have assumed that validation at this point in her illness is something that will benefit her, despite not knowing the vulnerable individual from Adam

They have actively tried to stop posters who are not playing God from posting and have berated then for not pretending to be able to provide therapeutic support and for being unwilling to provide therapeutic validation.

I have just read through this entire thread, and while there are bits of Math's posts I don't agree with, I agree entirely with what Hester has said.

What I find absolutely incredible, though, is people's assertion that Math is bullying anyone . She feels very strongly (as do I) that this thread has derailed so much from being "helpful" that it could no be harmful and is entitled to argue that point.

To call her a bully for arguing and trying to prove her point is extraordinary - it seems to me that she is much more ganged up on than ganging up (all by herself) on anyone else.

I accept, btw, that Ow started this with the best of intentions, and had it remained general rather than personal it might have been useful. Once it became a therapeutic exercise based on a couple of personal stories, it lost its purpose.

Hello all
At the risk of going virtually hoarse I am going to post ANOTHER reminder of our guidelines and in the spirit of the Olympics ask you to play fair and be nice.

THANKS
MNHQ

Look either they are 'real' professionals and not making it up - in which case i see no problem. I certainly didnt come on this thread thinking 'ooh if i post on here some miraculous change is going to happen to services.' I saw it as an opportunity to share experiences and tips.

OR

they are lying and actually work in a bingo hall three nights a week in which case they arent breaking any professional rules.

Im too bothered which it is to be honest. I read, digest, empathise, take the bits i find useful and then go and watch the telly.

In the past when I have been in a period of illness I would have taken the advice more seriously - but only to the point of having deeper hopes that something might help. NOt so that I lost every ounce of common sense.

I will continue to challenge professional misconduct when I see it.

You can call it bullying if you wish.

That is your perception.

You are of course welcome to it.

As you and your fellow 'professionals' might say 'thank you for your contribution'.

"A trusting individual with mental health problems has been validated in the therapeutic sense by professionals here, who are now claiming that therapeutic validation has been equally provided by non-professionals.
"

except nowhere have i said anything from a prof viewpoint there have i? i am glad people have found comfort in others experiences. how awfully shit of me. ffs.

"Most worrying of all, they have assumed that validation at this point in her illness is something that will benefit her, despite not knowing the vulnerable individual from Adam "

if you had the slightest clue what you were talking about then you would know that unconditional positive regard is considered good practice and it is impossible to say anymore over the net without knowing the person and working with them. there are psychiatrists who practice within a school of thought that will validate psychosis math. try reading up on it. there are many many schools of thought within mental health and validating somebody elses experience is a very basic one because it is THEIR EXPERIENCE. whether you agree with that or not is not relevant, take it up with the psychiatrists who do go along with psychosis as a form of healing.

that is one example of many. not everybody shares your view that somebody who is floridly delusional should be told that they are talking shit and are obviously mentally ill. some people believe that to be damaging.

I meant to say, there are also a lot of bits of Math's posts that I do agree with.