What could be different in mental health care, what helps, and what have you found to be useful reading?

[OwFriggingOw]

First off - this is a thread inspired by another thread - not about another thread.

I am a lecturer who teaches mainly MH nursing students, but also Adult, Child and Learning Disability field nurses about MH, and also occasionally medical students. I have no agenda for this thread bar a genuine desire to listen, share ideas, and have an open discussion about what is helpful / less so. I worked in NHS MH for 13 odd years.

In case anyone links the other threads that inspired this thread - I have been comissioned to edit a book about people's experiences (service users and carers / family / friends) within MH services and with MH issues. NONE OF THE POSTS HERE WILL BE USED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM FOR THIS BOOK. You have my ABSOLUTE word on that. Similarly, NONE of the posts here will be used in any of my teaching.

My aim in starting this stems from several PM's and several on-thread comments about how this would be useful/ I hope it can be a helpful, supportive and productive meeting place for thoughts and ideas about what people have found helpful with regards MH care / services / support (statutory and non statutory) and what has been less helpful. Most importantly with regards the less helpful - what can be done differently?

And - beacuse I like books - maybe we can share reading ideas :)

Would it be helpful if I shared parts of my long thread from earlier regarding what I see as needed, without any other details from the thread?

"Don't post your experience on here, you might upset someone"
So who is lurking, and taking notes?
How many people and in what state of mental health are reading?
How many families who have had a beloved relative sectioned and are doing their absolute best for their relative with what is available are lurking and hoping against hope that their relative is not a member of MN and is not reading this thread?
How many are hoping against hope that their impressionable relative has not googled mental health today?

'Hide the thread' is a complete cop out.

'If even ONE person benefits from this thread, that's a good thing right?'
WRONG

You absolutely have to weigh the potential for damage against the hope of helping someone, and the potential for damage comes out far ahead of all other considerations if you are a responsible, ethical poster.

That argument is used again and again to try to get threads deleted. It's nuts.

Anyway, what about people who start threads about guinea pigs being lonely? Won't that upset people who only have one guinea pig? Think about them and their dc!

MentalContinental -- how do you extrapolate from your experience that the same is true for lots of others using the six session approach?

How do you know that a large number of therapists use an identikit approach?

Opinions do matter to me.

I was clear that nothing on this thread would be used, so people knew this from the off. I didn't 'lure' anyone. I was open from the off, and in contact with MN HQ on this point. I was open about the book ecause I'd discussed it on the other now deleted thread in a totally different context, and didn't want the two to then be kinked and for me to be accused of being deceptive.

Rock and hard place - being as open as I can be without be outed,
and accused of being luring and unethical.

Thank you nilgiri

Linked not kinked. Sorry - am really quite upset with the constant barrage from you math and have no idea what you want me to say, do, or anything else really. Leave MN? Ask for the thread to be deleted (tho as MN have been happy for it to continue both yesterday and today, not sure whether they would anyway).

'the difficulty some -some !- mh professionals seem to encounter in treating their clients with the respect they know they should ?'

You cannot make a sweeping generalisation like that, nudge-nudge-wink-wink style, on a public forum on a thread whose stated aim is to be 'helpful'.

Name names if you have any specific people in mind if you don't then you should withdraw your comment and allow the people you have in mind to defend themselves or at least present their side of the story.

I read the 'some - some!' as future trying to ensure that she wouldn't be accused of running down a whole profession.

I'm saddened by the thread derailment going on, can't see a solution though.

If this thread is deleted, I shall demand that all "Guinea pigs get lonely" threads are subject to instant deletion.

Seriously, this thread is useful to me, and to many.

As people in the House of Lords and Commons have been saying recently, mental health issues are constantly swept under the carpet. They need to be talked about, not subjected to some kind of arcane taboo.

Ok Math, we are horrible, unethical, irresponsible posters. Are you happy now?

Seriously, you are derailing what is a useful thread for many people. You've made your thoughts clear. Are you really so full of yourself that you won't stop posting your opinions about how useless and awful this thread is (despite many saying that they have found it helpful) until it's deleted?

'Your attitude towards service users shocks me , math ... I feel your words will actively dissuade people from approacing mh services .'

Explain to me precisely how all this trotting out of pet peeves, picking apart of the mental health services, casting of generalised aspersions on doctors and staff and procedures and facilities, repetition of rumours, and extrapolation from individual experiences to general criticism, is going to encourage someone to place their confidence in what is available to help them, today, here, and now

Because what there is available here and now is the best option they have and in some cases it is the only option they have as the alternative may be tragedy.

math , what use are the forums you describe as being the only places from which real change will flow , while attitudes remain of insufficient respect towards clients ?- anecdotal or recorded .

I can understand if highly educated individuals don't want to debate with someone like me on here - as you say , there are other areas for such dialogue - but I do feel that you are saying is that , at a certain threshold , a professional can decide to completely disregard the views of a client and that should be an end on any discussion by we simple folk --until the next edict is handed down from these with the real power

The basic reading I have done , and even the dispiriting experiences of friends & family , do not suggest the situation is quite as bad as that ! It woud be tragic if your posts unintentionally worried any reader here and thus did what you so dread about this hread , dissuade them from seeking help

Consider yourself shouted at Nilgiri.

Ow: 'I read the 'some - some!' as future trying to ensure that she wouldn't be accused of running down a whole profession.'

Yes of course you did, Ow. And that is the basic problem behind your pie in the sky hopes for this thread.

You cannot say 'some' without casting aspersions on all.
If a poster has a specific doctor in mind then she should name that doctor and not cast doubt over them all.
If there is no specific crow to pluck with a specific doctor then she should not have said 'some', and implied knowledge of doctors.
If she does have a specific concern with a specific doctor then the place to deal with it is with the relevant complaints board and not here.

Look I think math has a point

There are lots of websites with a weight of info better suited than this to guide those with issues.

Some of the experiences shared and language used have been upsetting for others, including myself. Perhaps they are generally not suited for a forum such as this and are better suited to one where MH professionals are on hand to moderate and proffer help or guide in the right direction.
(My last posts were just general shooting the breeze about therapy, that is better done in peer to peer email.)

I'm unsure that this thread is helpful in any ordered or useful way and perhaps MN could look into having some PND advice or whatever.

None of this in this form will lead to anything being changed or noticed. It could lead to false hopes being raised.
Also with PT events, the reliving on a thread could be counter productive to wellness.

I think that it isn't denying anyone a voice about their experiences but if they wantthemto be changed they need to use an appropriate forum.
I think I agree with math in those respects

Futuredream, I repeat:

Explain to me precisely how all this trotting out of pet peeves, picking apart of the mental health services, casting of generalised aspersions on doctors and staff and procedures and facilities, repetition of rumours, and extrapolation from individual experiences to general criticism, is going to encourage someone to place their confidence in what is available to help them, today, here, and now

Name the unprofessional staff you have had contact with, all of you, and do not hide behind internet anonymity using terms like 'some', and 'many'.

Name the hospitals in which you have experienced poor treatment and the counsellors you feel have not listened to you and given bad service.

I've reported the thread to MN a third time, so that they can decide if it needs deleting.

I do take on board your points math and yours too perry.

You know what? Vulnerable as some are on here, we are all adults and we can all make our own decisions about what we read, what we absorb and what we ignore. Just because I have mental health problems doesn't mean that I need to have everything moderated for me, just in case it upsets me. I find that attitude utterly ridiculous.

There are ALWAYS going to be things in life that upset, trigger, whatever. You can't just treat people like children all the time.

YR: 'Are you really so full of yourself that you won't stop posting your opinions about how useless and awful this thread is '

First off, kindly refrain from insulting and attempting to bully me.

Secondly, this thread is, in my opinion (which I have a right to have and to post) far, far worse than useless and awful.

It has the potential to do a lot of harm.

math I'm very sorry that your relative is so ill, and sorry that it's been so difficult caring for them.

But are you seriously, in your heart, suggesting that if this thread didn't exist, then your relative and people similarly ill would not be arguing that they weren't ill, and drawing on everything from the milkman smiling at them to 9/11 conspiracies to "prove" it?

Your frustration is tangible. But you cannot stop your relative from doing this by stopping a thread. Or a website. Or the whole internet.

By stomping on this thread you would not be helping your relative. You would merely be stopping people who have themselves suffered mental illness - some of whom have also undergone sectioning - from finding ways to cope with and hopefully recover from both the illness and the effects of treatment (which as in many other fields of medicine can be damaging even when it works, never mind when it misses the mark despite best intentions, and never mind when it was poor by any standard). I don't think the thread will lead to major change, either, but multiple posters have said they've already found it helpful for themselves.

You are, for understandable reasons, locked into the "getting them in front of the doctor" part of the cycle. That's a very important part. But it's not the whole cycle, and effectiveness of intervention and its impact positive and negative, long and short term, is the other part of the cycle.

It's perfectly possible to discuss both, and personally I found Maryz's posts very informative.

And I am not primarily concerned with people who are posting here, YR.

You do not know what effect all this tearing apart of the MH services is having on lurking individuals.

Haven't read the whole thread I'm afraid but want to reply to OP and say thank you for starting it!

I haven't had any acute MH problems but have struggled with mild-to-moderate depression all my adult life.

I had a 6-session course of CBT last year and I'm afraid I found it to be utterly crap at dealing with my depression. I was feeling 'better' by the end of the course (and had only seen the woman once every 2 months over the final 4 months) but NOT because of the CBT. Because I scored highly on the final questionnaire, I was chalked up as a CBT success story. I wasn't. I didn't practice it at all beyond the first week. This wasn't the practitioner's fault. My experience with CBT is that it engages us in combat with the terrible stories we tell ourselves when we're depressed. I was asked to compile a list of 'evidence for the defence' as if this were a debate or court case, and I'm afraid I can turn any pro-me bit of evidence into anti-me if I am in the grip of depression. I realised that this was all the NHS could offer me and I was desperate for help, so I looked elsewhere.

What has helped me more than anything in the past year is engaging with the work of Mark Williams & Jon Kabat-Zinn on mindfulness. I know there are specific books on mindfulness & depression, but I haven't used those. I'd also highly recommend the podcasts on iTunes of the psychologist Tara Brach and her book Radical Acceptance (about self-compassion).

Seriously math, get off that high horse.

Service users with mental health issues often have the insight to discuss their situation and treatment cogently and having the opportunity to do that with others can empower individuals to feel they can make a complaint or take action where appropriate. Open interactions with professionals who are willing to see issues with the system can help.

I was diagnosed with perinatal OCD at 28 weeks pregnant. The psychiatrist was very clear that NICE would say I should be prioritised for CBT as a pregnant woman but that the local trust did not choose to do this. When there were issues with accessing an initial appointment as I had (by then) had my baby, this information enabled me to make a complaint which led to me being allowed to bring my baby to therapy with me. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to access treatment. Knowledge is power.

Luring my arse. There are all sorts of professionals on MN. I've learned a lot about how people view my profession from being on forums relevant to mine, and it has made me better at how I do my job. It's one of the beauties of being involved in an open forum. As with the other thread, talking about ethics here is a bit suspect. It's not a workplace, the relationships and boundaries are different and while I would frown on any professional who might, say, flame someone who identified as a service user having identified themselves as a professional, I think that it's a bit suspect to suggest that any discussion about mental health services is so dodgy. I think it betrays your prejudice about people with mental health issues. As I said on the other thread, my cousin has a very severe mh disorder but he is well able to talk about services when he is well enough to be in a position to type.

"Name names or withdraw- thank you Ow ... I did say "some!" and based it on very personal experience yes which is too identifying for the internet . I do accept it should have been slightly more delicately worded, and for that I apologise .
( As to the relevant complaints board , I and my husband were too worried by the implied consequences of complaining at the time ... others did , however , & the psychiatrist was disciplined by the approprite body -positive enough ?)

Such obstacles to helpful treatment need airing , I feel , so we can work out how to find the mh support we need !

"Picking apart of the mental health services" - I feel that rather minimizes the huge problems many people have and which may dissuade them from returning , or accessing at all if friend / relative had the negative experiences

I have not attempted to extrapolate from individual experiences to general criticism & am sorry if it looks that way .

I have no "pet peeves" ( what a depressing phrase ) and do not repeat "rumours", as am not in contact with service users except on the Mn threads .

As to "their only option" , I hope everyone will have positive experences , and hope for improvement / revolution in the experiences of those who don' t get what they need -but it is an ancient and erroneous argument that we must not lobby for change because it seems unrealistic

I believe a proportion people is so distressed by the thir experiences within mh services they are risking their safety avoiding them , to the point of living on the streets ( studies you will have read ), and that many others are living lives impeded by lack of mh support due to their unhelpful experiences- or lack of success in receiving services at all .

Very , very interesting post Perry but I strongly disagree with pretty much all your points , especilly on the usefulness of this thread . Those are fascinating disussions to be had in some form , but I do not think your arguments convince posters we should not be carryng on this thread .