Friend off to be assessed by ATOS today, I am feeling suspicious.

[ElizabethSwann]

My friend has life long anxiety issues due to an appalling childhood. As an under 13 yr old she experienced terrible sexual abuse ( of the most serious kind physically) plus spending time in and out of Refuge accommodation with her Mum and siblings. Her Mum was too traumatised and too involved with her own problems to realise how damaged her children were becoming.
With that childhood I am frankly amazed my friend can function at all but she actually does well - far more than she gives herself credit for.
As a 20+ yr old she worked as a care assistant in a nursing home - a job she loved and in fact her DD is named after one of the women she cared for.

The issue now is agoraphobia which started after her DD was born. My friend had horrendous PND and all the stuff she had suppressed since childhood hit her. It has caused problems ever since. Her DD is now 9 but my friend only leaves the house in the company of trusted friends. Without us she simply would not go out. Her partner (who was supportive) collapsed and died suddenly last year so it's just her and her DD now.

She has a mental health history under the psychiatric unit as long as anything and struggles with all day to day activities. I take her DD to school and collect her, she does food shopping online and I take her out if she needs extras.

I am so anxious about her today because last year ATOS found her "fit for work" which she absolutely is NOT. It took months of appealing and letter writing to get them to reverse their decision.

Am I right to suspect the motives of ATOS? I don't think my friend can go through another situation like last year which came right on top of the sudden death of her partner.

Why isn't the MASSIVE medical record she has enough? She has only got to the centre today with the aid of her support worker but all I can think is that they will see her chatting with the support worker and think she must be fine ....but she isn't - she really isn't.

Dont no anything about ATOS
Im guessing you cant do anything for your friend right now,so perhaps you are going to just have to wait and see.
Hope all goes very well.

You are right to be concerned unfortunately. The ATOS tick box questions on mental health are appalling. There are very few questions and they are badly worded.

If she is refused again don't struggle alone but get help from your local Law Centre or Citizens Advice. The benefits unit in the law centre where I work has a massively good record in winning these cases.

ATOS are rubbish. YOur friend is clearly not fit to work.
They decided I was fit to work three years ago, when I wasn't. I had to go back into the classroom to teach on supply and it was hell on earth.
Madmouse has the right idea. PLease help her to fight the decision.

Hopefully, her assessment will be favourable. However if not, she must appeal within 30 days- appeals can be made against the decision made or alternatively against the time scale they give for her to be ready for work. CAB offeR good support in appeals, she should get up to date letters of support from her MH team to send with appeal application.

Atos KILL people. And I'm very cynical and unemotive about do much. See my previous posts. Most people probably think I'm a bitch and heartless.

This whole welfare to work stuff is a very blunt instrument put in place by this awful coalition. I have seen the questionnaire that they send (helping a friend) and there were only 4 questions on mental health - in essence - were you sad or mad (though obviously not worded like that) ATOS is the private company running the service on behalf of the government and I think you most certainly should be suspicious at the very least. Incidentaly on this questionnaire it asked if you were having chemotherapy treatment and if so what was the date of your last treatment and the date of your next, so it is quite clear that they are expecting cancer patients to be able to work between treatments. Unbelievable.

Yes you must go to CAB or a Law Centre (though there are not many about) because I think their advice is free. She will almost certainly be found "fit for work" and she must appeal. I know that the appeal process is log jammed and it is costing around 5 million a year just to pay the appeal panels as they are having to work 7 days a week. Approx 40% of appeals are successful, but I have read that even when the ATOS decision is overturned, people are called back in for the WCTest and are told again they are fit for work. There are no words to desribe the callous disregard these posh boys have for people who are disadvantaged and sick. I don't even think they have the person's medical records available, though I'm not sure about this. It's a tick box thing and if you score 15 or above you are "fit for work"

I can't imagine how awful this is for people with mental health problems. I suffer from intermittent severe depression but in between am ok - I would never convince anyone I wasn't fit for work but I am 68 so it doesn't apply.

The complete lunacy of all this is that there are NO jobs available and people who are being paid billions by the govt to provide "back to work" training are actually fraudulent in some cases. The AforE company were actually getting people who they were supposed to be getting back to work, doing admin work for them, and then "helping" other unemployed people referred to them to find a job - talk about the blind leading the blind.

Sorry I must stop or I will go on all night.

You sound like a lovely friend OP and I hope your friend gets some good support to help with her appeal. Incidentally I understand that even if someone is put on to ESA (employment support allowance) there are 2 groups and one is a "support" group (WRAG) work related activity group, where people have to attend classes to help them back into this "work" which isn't there! The other group are awarded ESA and can be left in peace but only for 12 months. God knows what has to be wrong to be in that group.

I just hope and pray that this evil group of tories are booted out at the next general election.

Actually Atos were employed by the last Government. Blame them.

Yes you are right Lisaro - I am no Blair or Brown supporter and I know the so called Labout party were quietly privatising things, foundation hospitals, acadamies and contracting out to private companies, prisons etc but there is a ruthlesness about this coalition that goes far beyond what Blair and Brown did (or didn't do) and this issue of Work Capability Tests in my view is one of them. I suppose I shouldn't have introduced the political dimension as I'm sure there are other threads I can rant on.

You can't blame things on the wrong people nananina love or hate them. That's cheap and dishonest. Pretty typical of 'honest Tony' and his mates. Please don't cheapen yourself to try to score points.

Sorry-phone sent too soon. What next? Cameron invaded Iraq, murdered thousands and is currently profiteering to the tune of millions?
Sorry OP. this thread shouldn't be hijacked as its very important people realise what's going on.

Look Lisaro I have already said that I shouldn't have introduced a political dimension and this thread is very important for the person concerned, so I think it best if we stay away from our political views.

Sorry OP - I didn't intend to hi-jack the thread with political opinion but I got a bit carried away. Please let us know how your friend gets on with the WCT.

All you can do is be concerned and be her friend. It is good that she is with the support worker, it's more important that she has support than she goes through it alone. There's an argument that had she gone on her own she would be more likely to be found fit for work as she was capable of doing it alone!

We've been through this process. My dh has long-term mental health problems. I can't really express what I feel about it. Almost the worst bit for me is that the taxpayer is landed with the bill for appeals, so there is no incentive for ATOS to get it right the first time, and it seems unlikely that there has been much money saved on the process. All it will do is reduce the headline figure on benefits, which I suppose is the point. That's what the British people wanted - there are plenty who think the cuts have not gone nearly far enough.

We have pulled out of the process - I earn enough that dh wasn't getting any money anyway, it was purely to maintain his NI contributions. We will have to try and do that ourselves. I guess we could get rid of the computer.

Thank you all for your responses - I agree tht this is a very important topic. My friend had the assessment yesterday, the assessor was a nurse and was lovely but of course she will not make the decision. I have a few things ready for when the decision comes if it puts her into the "fit for work" category or even the WRAG category - neither of which she fits at present.

I didn't know they used nurses for these tests. Not knocking nurses of course but I think a GP should be doing them, but as it is more or less just box ticking I suppose it could be anyone! Maybe they'll get the jobseekers in to do it!! Sorry I mustn't mention politics, though it is hard not to when talking on this topic. My friend was denied ESA too and it woud take me far too long to tell you about her mental and physical health conditions but she is absolutely unable to work, and yes we will go through the appeals process.

When you say ES that the nurse doesn't make the decision, who does - a Dr of some sort I assume, but I thought it was a tick box thing and if you scored a certain number or higher you were "fit for work" - maybe it is not such a blunt instrument but either way it is totally unfair not to take into account a person's medical history.

There are I am sure many people who have been getting incapcity benefit for years and don't have any real health issues, or are dependent on drink or drugs. I know of a few people like this myself, and I could see the sense ingetting these people back to work IF there were any jobs, but certainly where i live in the Midlands, unemployment is very high. However I see IDS has now come up with the notion of people who are drink or drug dependent having to go on a course to cure their addiction. In theory I can't disagree but I think the addiction is underestimated, and of course there is almost always a reason why people become addicted in the first place.

Tbh Nana I don't know who makes the decision, I have a friend who is employed by ATOS - she is a nurse and I know from her that she carries out assessments but the case goes to a decisionmaker and she has no say in the outcome. I am not sure who the decision maker is or even if they have any medical qualifications (will have to ask my friend).

You are right, it is hard to see friends or relatives (or even ourselves) have to experience this without seeing the political stuff alongside it.

I think that people were at one time encouraged onto IB if they had a long standing issue such as back injuries etc so that the unemployment figures looked better - but having done that it's a bit rich to be saying to them now - "you're just a scrounger". Far better to make the decision that in future the unemployment figures are assessed honestly.

I m fully expecting them to assess my friend as ether "fit for work" (which physically she might be) or as suitable for the Work Related Activity Group.

My friend is currently not suited to either but in another year she might be as she is about to embark on 6-12 months of intensive psychotherapy (weekly appointments) to tackle some of these issues she has. Her partner's estate left her with £1000 and she decided to learn to drive (she feels safe in a car as it is an enclosed space). She has an old car and is due to take her driving test soon after several months of lessons - all this is doing her self confidence the power of good. I suspect that the combination of the two will make a massive difference to her.

Glad to hear your friend may well be on the road to recovery although allthis testing may well hold things up. I think this is why i feel so angry about it - it's so unfair. Another friend's son has just been through it (mind he is an alcoholic and has been for many years, but apparently you have to score 15 or above to be declared unfit for work and he scored 0! Think I got it wrong way round last time.

There is one thing about the assessment that makes me laugh (in a rather bitter way). If you have agoraphobia that is so severe that you can't leave the house, you are assessed at 15 points and are therefore eligible for ESA. In order to be assessed, you have to leave the house and go to the assessment. Ahahahahahahaha.

Oh great - catch 22. I have heard they ask trick questions like "do you watch any of the Soaps" and if the response is yes, that tells them you can sit for 30 minutes. My dil's mother has agrophobia but can go out if someone is with her, so reckon they would just ask that someone brings her to the assessment, and then she would still probably be declared fit for work. I feel really anxious about what is happening (not for myself) but for disadvantaged and sick people (even those confined to a wheelchair) who are being told they are fit for work, but then there is no work. It's a bit like Alice in Wonderland isn't it, only much more dangerous of course.

My friend only got to the assessment centre with a support worker. The nurse she saw was lovely but my friend still cried through most of it

Just waitng for the outcome now - will update when she hears. Hope it's not too long a wait.

The problem is that it is all "done by numbers" - you need to score 15 or above to be put on the ESA group - 2 categories 1)WRAG work related activity group and I gather you have to go for group sessions 2) ESA (like incapacity benefit but only for 12 months till you are re-assessed.

I am assuming your friend has depression or some sort of mental health problem. I don't mean to sound flippant but it all depends on whether or not they have a box for "cried throughout interview" and I am pretty sure there isn't. I think there are 4 mental health boxes to tick or not - will have a look on DWP website but I can't do that clever link thing, but will let you know if I find the WCT. Someone posted it on here once.

I feel desperately sorry for all these people (especially those with MH problems - suppose cus I am a sufferer of intermittent depression) and can change from day to day, but thank god not dependent on benefits.

Just for your reference

1. the assessors @ ATOS are doctors, nurses and physiotherapists
2. the second half of the ESA application form has a number of sections relating to Cognitive Difficulties ie mental health problems and there is ample room to describe functional problems relating to MH issues
3. the 'decision maker' is a bod in the DWP who receives a report from ATOS following completion of the assessment
4. if awarded ESA, the two groups are a) support group - those for whom work is a long way in the future b) work related activity group (WRAG) for whom being ready for work is a closer reality

I in no way justify this whole procedure, i just support clients in negotiating it :(

Forgot to add:
5) if someone is unable to attend their assessments or exceptional medical reasons, they can request that ATOS carry out a home visit instead.

Thanks for info summer111 and I'm glad to hear that the second half of the ESA application has a number of sections related to MH issues. Presumably though this is once you have been assessed as in need of ESA.

The worrying thing is that "some bod" in the DWP is the final decision maker, so not a medical person at all, which suggests it is all based on whether you have scored 15 points or above and can be considered for one of the ESA groups, otherwise you are put on Jobseekers Allce.

Do you mind if I ask in what capacity you support clients going through this process.

NanaNina there are nowhere near enough questions to assess anyone's mental health. They are only interested in finding out if you can make it out of your own front door and if you're capable of talking to people you know only (in which case you're fit to work) or to strangers as well (in which case you're also fit to work) .

NanaNina, I'm an Occuaptional Therapist working in mental health with a specialty in employment issues. The whole systmem is flawd in that those who actually assess are not necessarily mental health specialists - therefore it really needs to be clearly spelt out on the ESA 50 form (that's the application form for ESA) how one's mental health impacts on day to day functioning. They do emphasise the need to include as many recent medical reports as possible as evidence.
Just to clarify, when someone is initially applying for ESA on the grounds of a health condition or disability, all this information is requested on the application form. The completed application goes to Atos who use this as a basis for their face to face assessment - ie questions will mirror those asked in the form.
The form should be completed highlighting functional difficulties that the individual has as a result of their illness. eg 'my memory and concentration is poor beacuse of my depression which imacts on my ability to focus on a task for longer than ten mnutes. I have difficulty in absorbing information as a result and often find that I lose focus. On occasions, I have left dinner burning in the oven as a result.' etc etc