If you had PND with the first, did you have it with the second?

[jabberwocky]

Still doing my research for a possible second pregnancy. Had a long talk/row with dh yesterday. He is still so traumatised by the PND I had with ds I don't know that he'll ever agree to a second child. I did suggest that he get involved with a study I saw on the birth trauma association website and he is actually doing it! So, maybe something will come from that.

Any stories good or bad would be greatly appreciated.

PND 1st time. panic attacks after 2nd. but don't let that put you off. i was half-cracked before and am completely off-beam now!

I've made an appt. on Monday to see a therapist and do a professional run-through. Told dh I wanted him to get involved too. I'm feeling better about taking charge of this finally.

Well done, jabberwocky. Feeling in control is huge.

I'm now pg with no3, and sometimes I say to myself "Why?". If my previous experiences are anything to go by, I'm going to have to go through morning sickness, anaemia, SPD, stitches (owww - the worst of all! ) after labour, struggle with bf, possible PND, problems with the PILs, all over again. Why put myself through probalby two years of, well, not quite hell, but nearly, when I've already got quite a marvelous family? I suppose it's the marvelousness of it all really - it's so marvelous having two, so much better than having a singleton, that I want more. Gimme more! And TBH, I now look upon the possibility of PND, just like morning sickness and all the rest, as a side-effect that may or may not happen, and that I will survive. It's worth it.

Anyway, I know I won't get PND again because I didn't last time and I know how to reduce the risk and deal with it.

I love your attitude, prettycandles. Good for you. Anticipating depression is scary but if you've had it before, you realise it doesn't last & there are ways to prevent and/or alleviate it. Having family & friends around who are sympathetic helps enormously. And just as no 2 pregnancies are alike, neither are the births nor post-partum period alike.

And there's always MN.

What a great post prettycandles! In fact, you voiced a lot of the feelings I have been experiencing. Part of me keeps saying, "Well, I survived the pregnancy/birth/PND, have a wonderful ds, and so shouldn't I just be content with that?" But I just so want to have that experience again of a little one growing inside and see that sweet, tiny face looking up at me...

JW, I had counselling after ds1, but it was never diagnosed as PND. Like Tootache has said I did my homework, worked out what my triggers are, and have managed to avoid it with ds2. However, what I failed to avoid was AND! I was very ill while I was pg with no.2 and am still on antidepressants, although since the moment he was born I have hardly felt any pain (only about 2 hours of the baby blues, which is getting off very light!). So when you're doing your homework, be a bit creative and don't just think about the context of being home with a small baby or the birth, think through all the experiences involved in having children and prepare. I really did not expect AND, but looking back I now realise I could have behaved differently in order to stop it hitting so hard.

Hi Jabbawocky ...
Please forgive me if I repeat anything anyone else said ...
I had pretty bad PND after DS that meant I was on ADs from when he was 8 weeks till 18 months. I don't think I truly felt normal until he was 2.
I was terrified to have another baby and when I got pregnant again I was sort of pleased but in a way not really ... sadly I miscarried that baby at 12 weeks which gave me a bit of a wake up call.
When I got pregnant again I spoke to my midwife about my fears and she put me in touch with a group in NZ called Trauma and Birth (I can look for the link for you). By talking to them and doing some tests we came to the conclusion that I had PND caused by Post Traumatic Stress Disorder due to a traumatic birth experience followed by a sick baby (he needed an operation at 4 weeks and had suspected Meningitis at 6 weeks).
The great thing about having a baby in NZ was that you get to have the same midwife throughout the pregnancy and 6 weeks after birth. My m/w was absolutely marvellous and helped me through every worry that I had (MN helped a lot too). As a result, in spite of having a second c/s, which I didn't want, DD's birth was just fantastic.
My DH was terrified that I would have it again and I can honestly say that I didn't even have a 'weepy' day ...
I was prepared to have it ... and put things in place in case I got it .... and so I felt that I was prepared for the worst and anything less than that would be a bonus.
You mentioned a Birth Trauma Association ... It may be the one that I was in touch with too.

HTH ... feel free to email me if you want to talk ... and indeed if your DH needs to talk to another bloke about it I am sure my DH would be happy to oblige.

I have just read through the rest of the thread now and completely agree with Toothache.
Failure to breastfeed DS for very long was also a contributary factor to my PND ... I had really bad advice I think at the time.
There was no real physical reason for me to give up ... I was in such an emotional mess that I just couldn't do it any more. That made things worse because I then got 'guilt' that made my emotional state even worse.
When I was pregnant with DD I planned all eventualities and talked over with many people (including here on MN) my plans for if it didn't work a second time.

Thanks so much for your post, ghosty. Mine was initially diagnosed as PND but then they felt that I had PN PTSD too/instead. I spoke with the new therapist as I was making the appt with her about this. The birth trauma association website says that cognitive behavioral therapy is helpful with this. Did you go through that type of therapy?

I have started to really pay attention to various triggers. Sometimes it's something as simple as seeing a friend breastfeeding at a party last night. I started to feel anxious and almost angry just watching her and found that I couldn't even walk over to talk to her. Definitely lots of issues still around about that, evidently! I may CAT you later to get my dh in touch with yours. I think that would be very, very helpful to him and I appreciate the offer very much.

I had mild pnd with my first, mainly, I think, caused by the enormous shock of it all and my life circumstances, social isolation (i.e. I didn't know any other mothers) being one of them. My doctor thought I needed something but not anti depressants and she recommended St John's Wort, which I took for six months. But I was absolutely fine with dd, 6 years later. I just wanted to give you another positive story.

I was very concerned about it this time round too and I'm really glad I didn't let it stop me having my gorgeous daughter.

I'm so glad to hear everything went well.

Now, I just have to convince dh...

This is the site I went to Jabbawocky
It is an NZ based site. Sheila Kitsinger (childbirth guru) supports it .... I think she is mentioned somewhere.
Is that the same website you looked at?

I didn't have cognitive behavoural therapy as such but I did get 8 sessions of therapy from the NHS which at $30 a time normally was great. We would never have been able to afford it otherwise.
My therapist was wonderful and helped me a lot but I really think much of my recovery after DS was due to time. My PND was really complex (as I am sure most people's is) and I my therapist helped me see each bit as a separate issue and deal with each bit at a time.

1. Traumatic birth. 55 hour labour followed by c/s. Although there was little chance I would have died really (due to modern science and having a caesar) I had a really funny turn when DS was a couple of days old when I realised that had it not been for modern medicine DH would have come home without a wife or a baby that night. I had never faced 'death' in the face like that before and although I am sure many people face worse things for me it was MASSIVE.
2. Due to the Traumatic Birth I didn't bond with DS ... I didn't love him. That destroyed me. I felt he could have been any baby given to me to look after. I still (6 years on) really struggle with the guilt of that.
3. DS had a condition that caused him to projectile vomit. In the 'olden days' he would have starved to death. All it needed was a simple operation to fix the problem. The problem was, that no one believed me that he was vomitting that much. I was told he had colic and reflux by 2 HVs and 3 doctors. It wasn't until my 10lb baby was 8lbs at 4 weeks old that we were sent to hospital for tests. The doctor at the hospital still told me I was paranoid. I thought I was going mad. Eventually a test proved that he had Pyloric Stenosis and he had the op and was fine.
4. Due to the constant feeding and vomitting, my faith in Breastfeeding failed. I resented my son for reducing me to this wreck. I gave up at 6 weeks and regretted it ever since.
5. At six weeks DS was rushed into hospital with suspected meningitis and was on IV antibiotics for 4 days until he got the all clear.

By then I was a basket case .... completely loony. Couldn't talk to people, couldn't get up in the morning, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, wouldn't let DH go to work (if it hadn't been for his very understanding boss he would have lost his job ... he didn't do a full day's work for 7 weeks)

The PND got worse as my relationship with DH was under strain, I had to face going back to work and putting DS into daycare (more guilt), my relationship with my wonderful loving mother broke down ... my relationships with most of my closest friends fell apart.

The therapist (who I only got to see when DS was 10 months) helped me separate all those issues and deal with them one by one ... bit by bit over a period of months.

I know I was better by the time DS was 2 because I moved to NZ ... that was pretty amazing considering I could't go to the corner shop when he was a few months old.

Anyway ... hope some of this helps ... if not, just ignore it ....

G

I just thought of something else ...
I think there is a big difference between PND brought on by PTSD and normal PND ...
Mainly that if you had PND with none of the PTSD then it is less likely for you to have it a second time around if things are in place to avoid it.
I know many women who had PND after having a straight forward birth with no complications afterwards. It is a chemical imbalance that no one can stop. I think that must be worse than what I went through. At least I could (eventually) put my finger on things that caused me to go doo lally ... A woman with no complications and a healthy baby must struggle more with the PND as she can't explain what it is that is causing her illness.
If your PND was caused by PTSD then I really think that you are more likely to be fine second time round (as I was)

Hi there,

I have been reading the posts and cannot believe the similarities between our experiences.

I had PND with my first, which didn't get diagnosed until DS1 was 6 mths (went to the doctor after finding myself in the kitchen with all the pills in the house lined up on the countertop, trying to figure out how I got there), and then I was on AD's for 18 mths.

I too had a traumatic labour/delivery (44 hours!) and a scare when DS1 was 2 weeks old and had to be admitted back to paeds. I also could not breastfeed for long as it was very painful and ds didn't have much of a sucking reflex and I had major guilt trips for giving up. I remember feeling very isolated as my husband did not understand what was happening and had no idea who I had become - poor thing was living with this mad woman who was like a stranger.

When I was pregnant with DS2 i was very ill, and then we lost him about half way through the prregnancy. I talked to the doctors at the hospital about the possibility of PND, and was told I wouldn't get it as the pregnancy had not gone full term. But 3 weeks after, I all over the place so I went back to the doctor, and was again on AD's for about a year. The PND was not as bad the 2nd time round, even though I was grieving too, as I had caught it early. The only sticky moments I had was when I tried to take myself of the pills too soon.

The third time around I decided that I would be prepared for all contingencies. I spoke to my GP and my Ob about it, and they realised that I was very concerned. We put a plan into place, that if I felt my hormones plummeting, and I did, I would go onto AD's straight away and not wait to get so low. No messing about, I didn't even have to see the doctor straight away, he was happy to prescribe what I had before for DH to pick up, as long as I saw him a week later.

I also decided that if I couldn't breastfeed again, I would not beat myself up over it, as ds1 hadn't suffered any from lack of it (he's 11 now and fit as a flea).

With my more pragmatic views and an action plan in place, I can say I did not feel depressed the 3rd time around. I did feel my hormones drop during the 3rd week post natal, it was like just before my period, but much much more intense, so at least I could recognise it. I guess the AD's acted as a prophylactic.

I hope I haven't worried anyone by my having had PND every time. I just wanted you to know that once you have had it, you are more aware, and even if in worse case scenario you have it again, you can be prepared for it.

I can honestly say I am having a great time with DS3 (who is 15mths), and would do it all again if it wasn't for DH having the snip in a weeks time!!

Just remembered something. DS1 also projectile vomited. I found this very embarrassing, and ended up not taking him out in case he threw up over anyone, which only added to my feeling of isolation.

He did a major vom in the middle of Fenwicks resturant in T.Wells whilst I had popped out with the inlaws - it travelled 3 feet!!!

You know, ds had projectile vomiting and made this kind of wheezy noise when he slept for a while at first. I think we were told that is was a mild case of pyloric stenosis and that he would grow out of it, which he did. My memories of that time get almost embarrassingly fuzzy.

I do think my PND (or PTSD) was triggered in large part by my birth experience. 36 hour labor until a new doctor came on board and discovered ds had been breech the whole time amd did an emergency c-section. Then hearing someone say "Oh, there's meconium" right as he was being born and that the APGAR score was 6 had me frantic from the get go. The entire experience was so incredibly horrible. On both of ds's birthdays I have had panic attacks. My brother, who is a physician, has never let me live down the fact that I used a midwife clinic instead of an OB (which is the more common route here in the US) for my prenatal care. He feels that an OB would have done a late-term ultra-sound, discovered ds was breech and scheduled my section. An OB would certainly not have let me labour more than 24 hours after my water broke in any case. And, the sad thing is, I believe that he is absolutely right about this. So, I've had to deal with the fact that my conviction about having a non-intervention type of birth almost killed ds and caused me to go through all of this. It's an awful thing to live with.

Hi Jabberwocky,

My labour wasn't quite so bad, just long, but I lost 4 hours due to being given such a high (for me) dose of pethedine. I felt so out of control and removed from what was going on around me, and as it was the first time I didn't know what to expect anyway.

And nor did you. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and wouldn't it be great if we all had a crystal ball?

2nd time round I made sure I didn't have any preconceptions, just that I didn't want pethidine, but would go with the flow whatever. And you know what? I did have pethidine, but at a really low dose. The midwife listened to my concerns and came up with a compromise suggestion, which I thought about for a while (no pressure from her)and went ahead with.

I actually thanked her afterwards, as I had a great labour and delivery (ok it was painful, but hey, they don't call it labour for nothing!) and came out feeling very empowered.

I was so much more relaxed with DS3 as well, and we bonded straight away, rather than the "OMG - I have a baby" feeling I had with DS1, along with the guilt of "i dont love my baby". When I went for my 6wk PN check-up, I wanted to walk out of the doctors office and leave DS1 behind! What a difference now, I actually find that I love him more with each passing year, and we have a great bond now, but I still worry that I failed him during his first 2 years.

The only tricky bit with DS3 was that I had forgotten how to bath a baby - well I did have a 10 year age gap!

It would be a great idea if your DH could talk to mine, or anyone in similar circumstances, just so that he could get it into perspective

Jabbawocky ... I just had a look at the TABS site again (haven't read through it for a wee while) and they have a brilliant piece on what to do when planning another baby.
There is also an article and study on Anniversaries of Birth Trauma which may be of interest as you say you had panic attacks on your DS's birthdays.
There is also a section for fathers which may be of interest to your DH.
Allboysclub ... it is amazing how similar these experiences are ... I am so glad that although you have had it 3 times that the last time has not been as bad.
So sorry to hear about your DS2 ... am though, that someone suggested you wouldn't get PND/PTSD due to the baby not going full term! How traumatic does a still birth need to be FGS???

Thanks for the information, ghosty. I have emailed to participate in the anniversary study. It's a bit of a relief to know others have had this, too. I had been looking at the birth trauma association website (UK) and dh has already contacted Gillian White about the Fathers in Stress study. I do hope he follows up on it.

Also, just finished going through all of the threads that prettycandles linked to. I was surprised that so many others mentioned not being able to remember the first year. In fact, I often tell people it's as if I woke up and had an 18 month old.

Jabbawocky ... I felt like that too.
I spent DD's first year relishing every moment thinking "I don't remember this with DS" and "I don't remember him doing that" ...
I think that is what still makes me sad about it really ...
Although I didn't have PND a second time I did go through some pretty emotional moments after DD was born, silently apologising to DS for his first year while watching him sleep
My emotional times after DD was born were totally directed at DS IYSWIM? Only felt pure joy about her ... but that ole guilt thing about DS reared its head big time.
I spoke to a family therapist when DD was about 6 months about my emotional state about DS ... and she very wisely told me that it was time to lose the guilt. I knew that obviously but I wasn't sure how to do that ... I still don't really ... but I am working on it. He is such a fantastic kid, so bright and loving ... I have every reason to be proud of him and of myself for raising such a cool nearly 6 year old in spite of his first year. But that guilt still knocks on my door every so often.
My PND has made me fiercely protective over my love for DS ... I tell him at least 5 times a day that I love him and that he is my best boy. I probably do it too much and will end up being the worst MIL in the world when the time comes for him to be married .
One of the things that worries me sometimes (if I allow myself to dwell on it) is that I never want him to know how I felt when he was born. Especially I don't want him to know the comparison between how I felt when DD was born.
Ho hum ... just thinking aloud really, as this is not relevant to what you are doing right now ... It is quite therapeutic to write it down though ... hope you don't mind

Oh gosh Ghosty, I have had many moments too when enjoying DS3, that I have mentally said a huge sorry to DS1. I have to stop myself being overprotective too, and force myself to take a deep breath and stand back every now and then.

I cant remember DS1's first 18mths either - I had to ask the HV all about weaning as I could not remember what babys could eat - I felt such a nonce, especially when she looked pointedly at my much older son. I just told her that I have a poor memory!

I absolutely refuse to be an awful MIL though - the only times I have been weepy this time around have been when MY MIL has been cussedly spiteful.

Jabberwocky, when were diagnosed? AFAIK, the earlier you get onto it not saying you will get it again the easier it is to sort out.
I had undiagnosed PND following DD's birth (untraumatic), dragged myself through the first year or so (and, yes, I can't remember very much about it apart from the bleakness). I felt pretty detatched from her until she started talking, really, at which point I fell in love with her.
Dreaded another 'first year'. If it had not been for DD and DH, I would have been very happy to stop at one. With DS, born (again straightforwardly) earlier this year, I pitched, literally overnight, into a severe depression when he was a few weeks old. But I got help very quickly and started to curve upwards shortly after that.
Identifying what was wrong with me felt like almost like a benediction. I feel so so glad that I've had the chance to see what is so wonderful about babies. I never knew.
(Ghosty, I completely understand how you feel about DS, not wanting him to know how you felt. However, I will definitely tell DD when she's older. Because I have an awful feeling that if she has children, she may go through what I did. There's no outside explanation for my PND, so I'm assuming there's a chance it's genetic: my maternal grandmother certainly did not 'like' babies either, though she was surprised by how much she enjoyed her grandchildren when they were very tiny, which makes me think... So, I want DD to know, albeit vaguely, what I went though.)

When I was diagnosed with PND after DS1, Mum admitted she had had it after my older sis was born (apparently the similiaritiies were frightening), only it was not recognised then. The may be some truth in hereditary PND and a genetic predisposition to raging hormones.

I wonder how many of you are affected by PMS? I had a terrible time of it during my teens (I used to throw things and beat my fists against the wall) and early 20's, but have mellowed over the years. I also have Lupus, which is also worse just before a period.

Just a thought!

ghosty, actually your post is extremely relevant to my situation. I have times where I am racked with guilt over my lack of love and bonding with ds when he was a baby. He is such a great, smart little kid! I think my possible miscarriage this summer has kicked off a lot of what I am going through right now. (never got a BFP, but had symptoms, late, etc. then symptoms immediately disappeared upon starting) After that, I really began to mourn for what I had missed out on.

adrift, I was diagnosed when ds was about 6 months old. I'm sure it had been going on from the start but that is when I got suicidal and decided I had to talk to someone about it.