5:2 Thread No. 80: "I am controlling what food I eat; it is not controlling me" (hat-tip to IamBlossom)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Stir My absolute favourites are 'Hairy Bikers' Great Curries' (pretty comprehensive and doesn't just cover Indian), Rick Stein's 'India' and 'Prashad' (vegetarian).
Does anyone have any ideas for how to fit 5:2 in with running? I'm nearly at the end of C210K and have re-discovered a love of running. I want to go on and do Half Marathon training, but I can't fast on a running day and then I feel so much hungrier the day after a longish run.

Hounds That's brilliant that you have developed a love of running

It depends on the individual tolerance and the level at which you train,
but is difficult to fit in running longer distances and training for it, with FDs

This is because that kind of running is prolonged steady state medium intensity cardio, in which your body tries to obtain its energy from your glycogen stores - these stores will be low , later on an FD and also on the morning after one.

This is why I recommend HIIT and lifting weights as the best forms of exercise to fit with a fasting life style

Most experienced fasters can manage 5k fairly easily and usually 10k, but not half-marathon distance
Sprint sessions would of course be HIIT and ideal with fasting

We had a long-distance runner, Anglais who used to win races for her age at pretty high level;
she really used 5:2 to lose a few extra kg whenever weight crept up, generally during the off-season,
but she didn't do FDs during serious training or of course during racing or race prep.

What I suggest:

• Try EITHER
  daily 16:8, i.e. skip either breakfast or supper and consume no calories whatsoever, either food or drink - have lots of water - during each 16 hour fasting period
  OR
  3 miniFDs of 1000 cals, Mon+Wed+Fri
  OR
  6:1, where the FD is on a day of sprinting training, or cross-training with weights; neither it or the following NFD should be a long run

• Try doing your runs before your first meal, so you eat directly afterwards
  This works pretty well for runs of up to 60 mins, but it is individual whether it works for longer runs.

Hi boys
That would be a good start, but then don't eat it back on the weekend.

keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible about treats, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Welcome back boys and it's great you've not gained anything in the time you've been away.

Fd done here on 515, could murder a but out for dinner tomorrow so can have it then.

How havery my fellow Fri fasters got on?

Havery? Wtf? 'Have'

Hi 43
I'm all done too at 538. Could also murder a wine, it's Friday night ffs! But I can wait for Saturday night.

I found today much easier, I didn't have that raging hunger that made me feel sick, either I am getting used to fasting again or not being so tired helps. Maybe a combination of both.

There is no way I can get to a gym or classes so am going to plan a home gym work out. I used to do a lot of planking and situps and I can still do that at home, it's just a case of getting into the routine.
Unfortunately, (or fortunately) my life is anything but routine these days.

I’m also done at 515. The ready meal was ok. I bulked it out with salad. Weigh day tomorrow. Hoping for another good week as I’ve been strict with mfp on NFDs but I do feel a bit bloated for some reason tonight and it’s the end of totm so that might have a negative effect too

Well done font and borris and good luck for weigh in tomorrow, I'm due totm soon so also feeling heavy and bloated and not convinced the scales will be kind tomorrow

Good luck with the exercise font there is an exercise thread that bcf and others have posted videos etc on that might help?

Well done on your FD, 43, font, borris and any other Friday fasters

Sounds like you are adapting again to fasting, font

If pushed for time, can you try e.g. Shred 1 (free) whenever you have 20 mins spare

Also HIIT Fat Blasts - just 2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home or in the park, 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP
They are surprisingly good at improving fitness and also correcting some insulin metabolism issues.

1lb on I have been soooo good so all I can pin it on is imminent totm. Looked at mfp and I have been loosing and gaining this bloody 1lb since 18th August. Any ideas bcf and others or just keep on with it? I even went back to mfp for tracking food this week. Hope others have a more successful weigh in than me

Sorry to hear that, 43
Either it is a plateau, or you don't have a weekly calorie deficit

So, returning to mfp sounds a good idea to check if it's the latter - give mfp 2 weeks, in case totm is a factor

43 - I wouldn’t be suprised if it’s the huge quantities of veg. Dying to know if you binned the cake? Well done on your FD. You may have hit a plateau, just keep chipping away and hopefully it should pass soon.

Fontrieu - That sounds like a good plan. Quite a few of us have adjusted our goal weights lower once we’ve got there. It’s what works for you, but quite a few of us found that doing 5:2 meant we could go lower than what could be achieved on any other diet.
Well done on your FD, can you look on YouTube for a workout that takes your fancy?

Badger- Huge Congratulations on your SV.

BCF - He does seem to have a delicate tummy but quite often it’s different meals for example chicken & veg pie may upset him one week but not the next. The only thing that was in both was carrot & Swede veg mix and cream. But I put carrot & Swede in fish pie and he woofs that down. He’s a strange one.

Boys - How are you doing? Good luck for the weekend.

Hounds - No advice for you I’m afraid as 10k is my limit and I’m usually alright doing that fasted. For the last race I did as it was so very hot I had Greek yoghurt Musli and banana if felt quite light and not too filling to run on.

Borris - Well done on your FD.

Good luck to everyone fasting today hope you all have a fab weekend.

Oh 43 thats shit!

Kitchen closed at 587 and 653 on Thursday & Friday, treated myself to a coffee and scrambled eggs for brekkie 😁

I went & bought myself a hula hoop. I've awful coordination so this will be interesting to say the least

No opportunity to join a gym unfortunately, but DS1 is back to sports since ladt week so I get to run around the pitch with DS2 during practice 😁

Well done, boys
Your hoop sounds fun
Also, I suggested last night to font, various possibilities to exercise at home

67.2 I’m happy with that. Going back to b2b mon and tues next week.

It’s my 2nd lowest weight since I started

Thanks for the running advice BigChoc - I've got into the habit of running on Mon, Wed, Fri and Sun so not sure that mini fasts would really fit in...but, I might give 16:8 a try. I have lost a further 0.5 lb this week, so have lost half a stone in total now!
That is rubbish 43 Hopefully, you'll crack it this week.
Boys I've got a hula hoop too. I need to start using it again - it really bruised my middle when I tried it before!
Well done to everyone that fasted yesterday. I am most impressed that you managed to go without Friday night !

Well done on your SVs, Borris, Hounds

borris Your insights from mfp seem to have really helped you progress, after being stuck for a while

Well done hounds and borris it is frustrating but I'll keep on. .. on the plus side I went shopping and I'm now too comfortably in a 14 in jeans, depending on shop I might have to try a 12 soon don't think I've ever bought a 12 in a jean!

Hi 43. It is really frustrating when you get stuck.

This might be totally the wrong suggestion and I am prepared to be shot down in flames (just not of the AIBU variety please), but this worked for me when I got stuck last time when I was fasting to lose weight.
I had got completely stuck and was so frustrated and fed up that I was considering throwing in the towel.

I completely stopped thinking about TDEE and mfp for a week and ate what I wanted, when I wanted it and had at least one blowout meal, I think I did one fast day that week to minimise the damage but otherwise really didn't restrict myself at all. It seemed to work because when I got back to 5:2, I found I was losing again, properly.
It seemed to reset something in body and/or mind and I was able to shift that last bit that I wanted to.
It may not work for everyone but might be worth a try if you are getting fed up with mfp.

Well done Hounds and Borris!

By the way 43 well done on the jeans! I bet it feels blutty fantastic.

Don't worry, font Nobody gets shot on these threads
We are a viper-free zone - the only genuine rule here.

The theory about having a blowout meal / day / week to break a plateau is popular, because evryone wants it to be true.
Unfortunately - according to the vaious weight loss sites - it works only very occasionally
and usually that's when people are already quite lean.

What sabotages many people is usually regular indulgent weekends, or too many social occasions, when they eat & drink what they like - and keep eating back the FD deficit
On any diet, weight loss is enabled by a regular calorie deficit; the trick is how to obtain this sustainably and as painlessly as possible for the particular individual.

Sometime, a day off or even a week off releases stress and that break enables some people to restart their WOE with renewed enthusiasm and focus.

However, sometimes that week off just piles on a few lb - mostly just water retention from excess carbs & salt -
and this start a spiral of discouragement and bingeing that can result in permanently giving up and quickly regaining all the lost weight.

43 If you really want to try this, I recommend you plan an FD directly afterwards and stick to that
Decide firmly you will NOT give up if you have actually put on weight - after only a week it will soon come off again.

However, I would recommend first that you mfp for a week or 2, to check if your NFDs need retraining.
Borris and many many others before her only broke through plateaux after mfp showed up all the hidden calorie bombs.

A genuine plateau is when you are averaging within TDEE on NFDs and still haven't lost for 3+ weeks
and the next step then is usually a couple of weeks on 4:3 and stricter choices, to bust the plateau

Good luck with the hula hooping boys. I tried dds and I can’t make it stay up at all. Hopefully you’ll have more success!

43 enjoy buying size 12 jeans

Bcf - yes my mfp week really shocked me. I think I wanted 5:2 to work even if I ate a bucket of ice cream on NFDs and I’ve realised that sadly that’s just not the case. I realised that on the whole my actual meals don’t contain excessive calories but it’s the extra wine, chunk of cheese, slice of chorizo, free Waitrose latte, Danish pastry (350 cals!!! And some Saturday mornings I had 2!!!!!) that really did the damage.

Making lunch on NFDs is so much better as a meal deal type lunch with sandwich, crisps, drink can easily be 7-800 cals - more than most my standard evening meals. I’ve realised I’d actually rather eat 400 cals at lunch and then maybe have a glass of wine with dinner

Thank BigChoc.
Its fair to say that I was down to my last half stone and was stuck.
The last thing I would want to do is derail anyone's weight loss. It is hard enough to lose weight!!

I would agree that it has to be followed by getting right back on plan, straight away.
I've been looking back through my diary to see if I logged what I weighed after my week off but cannot see it.
I do know that I did not carry it on, it was a one off that worked short term but then I was straight back to fasting immediately and saw the results that I wanted.
Maybe it should be treated as a two week experiment if anyone does copy me. The first week is a relaxation of rules followed by a strict return to fasting and mfp.
What I would say is that once you have been fasting for any amount of time, your desire and appetite for crap food is vastly reduced as Borris found on pudding night so as long as you are a seasoned faster, you may find that even though you allow yourself off TDEE monitoring, you probably will not go too far astray in the space of a week. But only if you are finding it naturally easy to eat within TDEE.

Once I got used to fasting, I didn't use mfp or calorie count at all and I still lost a lot of weight pretty consistently.
If you have any doubts at all that you may be going over TDEE or may have a calorie bomb or two somewhere then honest counting and logging is the first port of call.

Please don't copy me if you think it will derail your weight loss.

Fast today done - slightly over on 570. First weekend FD, though! DH has been grumpy as hell all day and kept trying to persuade me to give up - might not do another weekend for a while!

Dinner was a baked potato, tuna, bit of cream cheese and a massive salad. I don’t understand how people can have more than one meal on a fast day - 500 calories disappears so quickly!

I haven’t been brilliant on NFD, but I’ll see how I go weight-wise. Once I get the fast days sorted I’ll work on the NFD!

Hi Cheddar,

I would avoid baked potatoes on an FD, carbs eat calories very fast. Protein is more filling. Go for a salmon fillet or an omelette instead of the potato.