5:2 Thread No. 80: "I am controlling what food I eat; it is not controlling me" (hat-tip to IamBlossom)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all.
And this is a respectable time to call morning!
Cats can be truly evil stir but I'm shocked yours ate your dinner! Beyond wicked.

Well done 43 and other fasters!

BCF thanks for thé advice.
I did go to bed, slept from around 6 until 1am when I grabbed 2 boiled eggs, a quarter of a slice of bread and a small glass of milk then went back to bed and slept until 7. I won't eat until until lunchtime so should maintain a decent fasting window.

I decided to risk eating late because I'm sure my midnight snack was healthier than most and it didn't involve alcohol!

I'm going to roast a chicken this afternoon which I will have with roasted beetroot, courgette and potatoes. It's an odd combination but that's what's in the garden. My NFD dinner is going to be so very worth the hunger!

Ah, Bug I hope you are feeling better today
Good luck any fasters!👍

Well done mickey and don't forget you get 650 per day if doing b2b so you should be bob on with 500 today.

Can you post some recipes hounds I love Thai food.

font I think your dinner sounds delicious, even better that it's all from your garden.

Woken up feeling worse but luckily I'm working from home today and it's an nfd so should be fine. Hope everyone else suffering if feeling better

Oh Bug I’m sorry to hear that, I hope your feeling better this morning.

MrJolly - Definitely give B2B a go and see how you get on. I think it’s one of those mind over matter things, your head says it’s going to be hard but in reality it’s not that bad.

Smiled - Hmm that’s tricky but I think the best thing to get back on track is posting here. Basically confess and have a FD plan, then once it’s written down on here you’ve got to do it. This thread for me has been my lifeline, you get a kick up the ass when needed and the support is fantastic. Good luck.

43 - oh that’s terrible, I really hope you also feel better soon.

RedSummer - How are you doing? I was thinking about you only yesterday and wondering if you had a NC.

Fontrieu- Oh no not you aswell, I hope your feeling a bit better today and you’ve got some well deserved sleep?

BCF - Is this a new thing your trying? Where did you get your inspiration from? It really does sound tough.

StirCrazy - From the Chinese something like king prawns and mushrooms cooked in soy sauce. I used to ask them to cook that for me and they were happy to. I got a feeling beef in black bean sauce is alright calorie wise. And Indian Tandori chicken is good as it contains no sauce. I also want to say Rogan Josh as it’s tomato based but it’s probably got some added ingredients in.

Borris- How did the pudding party go?

Mickey- Well done on your FD. Yes cheese is a nightmare I try and aim for a 25g portion but realized when I got scales I had been over guessing by 50% . I may join you on a FD as we have absolutely no food I’m apart from ham cheese and eggs.

Good luck to everyone fasting today, and wishing everyone else a speedy recovery.

I am trying this diet again after a year of trying to either calorie count or do the No S Diet but not really sticking to anything and achieving precisely zero. I need a diet where having some weekends off doesn't blow everything!

First fast day down yesterday - finished on 473, and it wasn't too bad. I'm 1.6lbs down this morning which I will take! Next fast day is going to be Saturday - I've got a night out tomorrow which will involve alcohol, so I don't want to fast on Friday with a hangover. I really really need to shed 2 stone to be a healthy BMI, but tbh I am just really looking forward to getting the first 7lbs off and having the scales start with a new number.

I was going to the gym at work a lot over the summer but managed to get pneumonia 6 weeks ago so haven't been since. I'll get back to it on Monday. I did lose half a stone through being ill but it's all gone back on again, grr! (Don't worry, though, I'm fit enough to start back - was told I could start exercising again after a fortnight and I just haven't.)

8 hours down, 4 to go til teatime!!!

Hi Cheddar
I have just returned too after falling off the fasting wagon.
Well done on your fast yesterday and the SV today. Great start!

I'm thinking of buying some scales to weigh myself. I don't really know what kind of gain I am dealing with and I'd like the reassurance of seeing a tangible number each week in case I'm doing something wrong.

Well done, mickey

Welcome back, cheddar
and well done on your 1st FD back and SV
Good to hear you are well again.

Weight loss through illness isn't beneficial and often quickly regained,
since obviously it can affect health & energy for months and also the loss may be lean mass and water, rather than body fat.

I recommend you aim for a waist goal, 1st step being waist / height less than 0.5
Measure waist at narrowest point, usually 2" above the navel (that's for women - for men it's at the navel)
Waist in particular gives an idea of viscous (internal organ) bodyfat, which is the kind that affects health, hence more important than subcutaneous (under skin) bodyfat.

It's fine to have weekends off, but to lose weight you need to avoid eating back the FD defict over the other 5 days

Most folk don't need to mfp on the 5 NFDs, as these are "maintenance" days with "normal" eating
However, some folk find that their "normal" is above what their body burns, i.e. above TDEE

So after maybe an initial loss, they don't really progress.
This is particularly so for those with low TDEE, i.e. short / middle-agede / sedentary / not much to lose

I recommend you see how you go without mfp for say 3 weeks, BUT keeping to the
_5:2 healthy habits on NFDs,+ even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible about treats,
lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Font Digital scales are more reliable and weigh under consistent conditions inorder to monitor properly
I suggest recording the weekly weight, in the morning after FD2, after loo but before eating or drinking anything.
Scales should always be in the same place, on a level hard surface - NOT carpet

Also, take baseline measurements of waist and hips, then monitor these every 2-3 weeks say.
Same sub-0.5 target as for Cheddar, above.

Stay focused, clutter
Good luck to you and to all the other Wednesday fasters

Duck Adding in vegan days is after reading Dr Valter Longo's excellent research and his recommendations for longterm health.
As I'm aged 62, that is probably of more urgency / importance for me than most of you young'uns on these threads
It isn't anything that boosts weight loss

I certainly can't cut back protein as he suggests on NFDs - his daily plan really would be too joyless and hence unsustainable for me -
I find I need plenty of protein and "normal" amounts of reasonably healthy carbs to stay full.

I would gain weight if I tried to go on a permanent low protein low-medium carb BORING diet !

So, a few monthly vegan days are a sustainable compromise for me, which is sustainable longterm
Anyone who is not used to fasting may find these low protein FDs too tough

So, I recommend first getting to goal weight and maintaining there for some time,
before worrying about optimising diet for longterm health

Welcome back cheddar
Hang in there clutter

Last 2 of the 6 children have just left. One of the upsides of looking after 6 children is that there is not a single second to eat after school or even think about how hungry I might be
My new baby is 3 weeks in and showing no signs of letting me move more than a foot away from him so no sneaking to the kitchen for anything.
I’m having a Bol pot for tea...just got to zap it in the microwave.
How’s everyone getting on?

Well, I hope that you have all done better than me today! I had to abandon my FD as just couldn't manage it today - I have felt too hungry to the point of thinking I was going to be sick this morning. The only thing I can put it down to is that I went for a 7(ish)Km run last night...
On the plus side, however, I have given in and decided to count calories this week - I'm not counting to a limit as such, but am writing down absolutely everything that I eat on MFP. So far, I will concede that it isn't as bad as I was fearing!

hounds I have also abandoned today. A mixture of PMT and also the stress of Take That tickets!!!! Grr. Feeling fed up. Planning another FD Sunday...

Hi everyone! Sorry for radio silence we've been in midst of house renovations so life has been crazy!! Still is a little but have time to check back in. Although baby crying upstairs!!!! Better go.....

Ah ha husband got to her before me
I'm loitering around the 65.1 mark, I broke into the 64s pre hols so aiming for sub 60 - my FDs are good, my NFDs ok too but have stopped MFP everyday as was getting obsessed.

Reckon I can do it as exercise will increase once house is done and we have weekends back

Thank you, BigChoc! My waist is around 31 inches and I am 5’2”, so exactly 0.5. I’d like it to be a lot smaller! Am I remembering rightly that fasting will whittle your waist down quite quickly relative to normal calorie counting?

I’ve been tracking in MFP today and have reached 1500 calories. My TDEE for maintenance is somewhere between 1700 and 1900 so I’m ok - there’s leftover apple crumble from Sunday that won’t last much longer and I might just have a smidgen!

6 DC, clutter < faints impressed by your energy>

cheddar Yes, fasting is good at helping issues related to insulin metabolism, hence tends to lose more of the waist fat than standard daily calorie restiction

Also, weight loss from 5:2, or other forms of intermittent fasting, is almost all fat loss, plus water.
Muscle mass is preserved, or sometimes increased, even if you don't increase exercise.

Final score = 1861 calories. And I’ve done 12,000 steps.

BigChoc, thank you for the info - you really are a font of knowledge!

Evening all, just popping on to say "thank you" to those sending get well wishes and that I seem to be back to normal today. I'm actually questioning if I did even have a bug or if was just stress - my DF had some test results from local hospital due yesterday and when he called last night to tell me all was well I had a good cry and almost instantly felt much better. Funny how our bodies can react to these things without our brains even really noticing.

clutter I'm in awe of you and your job - I have no idea how you do it! Are any of your own kids part of the 6?

Welcome back to the returners and well done to those who fasted today. And well done to the "postponers" for recognising that life gets in the way sometimes but that's ok!

BigChoc - They’re mostly pretty straightforward but wednesday’s line-up is a little tricky so I’m always glad when it’s over

HLBug - glad you’re feeling better. No, my own ds is 16 and generally fends for himself. I have 15 on my books so the bigger challenge is remembering who’s coming on which day. I’m on the downhill now...manic morning tomorrow then the rest of the week will hopefully be a breeze.

Well done, cheddar You nailed it and did a good bit of walking

I'm so glad it was good news, bug
and yes, too much stress can affect the tum quite badly

Do still give yourself this week without FDs to relax, though, because your gut may need the time to recover, regardless of what caused the problem

I had a very indulgent day out yesterday after my b2b, because I had a huge brunch & supper at excellent restaurants
Then I got home and found the big care box of Marmite crisps I had ordered from Amazon UK had arrived ...

Well, today I was busy running errands and genuinely didn't feel hungry until after evening Killer Lifting class,
so I've eaten only once - excellent Rhine Café, owned by a qualified master baker - along the path from my appartment:
masses of cheese squares, bowl of red and green grapes, 2 laugenbretzels and a glass of red Federweisser

A sub-TDEE day, which illustrates how very greedy days and very moderate days can automatically even out, once your body is in reasonable balance

Hi, can I join in? I've been using 5:2 as a way of losing weight for quite some time. It was part of my life for 3.5 yrs. I lost 3 stone, and then maintained during that time. Unfortunately I started a new job, and lost the enthusiasm to fast, then gained back a stone.
I have been back on track for 3 weeks, in preparation for a holiday in October, and I've lost 5lbs. It's not much, I guess, but I'm feeling better already....and I've regained my love for fasting! It really is the only thing that works for me.
I find I need a good couple of weeks to let my body adjust to it, then it becomes part of my week.
I'm on a fast day today, just off to work now, so will be busy until 2pm. I find distraction and keeping busy I still the key for me!
Looking forward to keeping up with this thread, and reading your posts. Have a good Thursday!

Hello Cherry, I think I have about a stone to lose as well. Similar to you, I lost weight and maintained then changed lifestyle and lost my way with fasting. Good luck today.

BCF your meal sounds fantastic.
I'm feeling loads better after a couple of good nights sleep. I'm going to pick up some scales later so will weigh in tomorrow morning. I'm really dreading it, in my head I have convinced myself that I have piled on loads and am back to a size 18 which is ridiculous as I'm still wearing a pair of 10 jeans (albeit snugly).
Logic tells me it's going to be a stone or maybe a little more.
The minds plays horrible games sometimes.

Bug I'm glad that it was good news and you are feeling better. I've noticed stress can seriously effect my stomach too. Take it easy and drink plenty of water.

Welcome Cheddar 5:2 sounds good for you. Yes some weekends off are fine on the Way of life. Good job on your first FD, and good on for for doing a weekend FD this week, I really believe doing a weekend fast keeps you in check.

Fontrieu- Digital scales are great, takes the guess work out of those other ones. You can buy them cheap as chips now. We’ve had ours for years they just stay in the same place and occasionally have to change the battery. Scales aren’t the be all and end all as a tape measure also does a good job, but I used to save that for weeks I had a small loss.

BCF - That does sound a challenge, especially with the loss of eggs.

Hounds - Don’t beat yourself up, these things happen. But good for you for counting cals this week, be interesting to see how you get on with your losses this week.

Mickey - How did you get on with the tickets? I would of liked to have gone as there very local to me for the first time ever but I’ve heard it was a absolute nightmare.

Badger - Good to see you, hope things settle down for you soon.

Cheddar- Yes really does help with waist measurements actually it’s incredible. My waist has always been my smallest part as I’m a hourglass but when you start doing measurements and it reduces by a inch or two each time it’s bloody amazing.

Welcome, cherry
Well done on your SV; 5lb is a decent start and it sounds like you'll soon be back in your old fasting groove

Try not to worry, font
If you fit into size 10, you obviously haven't done too much damage
A stone shouldn't take too long, so in a couple of months say, you can start thinking about which maintenance plan would start

Good luck to all the Thursday fasters