5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Marking place!

Morning! FD here to make up for missed monday one. Have butter bean stew ready in fridge for dinner with poached eggs.

Well done to all the scale and non scale victories!

Feeling positive and chanting my no snacking mantra. I think it can take some adjustment to eating big enough meals at first, then when u get used to no snacks you can reduce portion size if needed. I have found in the past that even eating three massive meals i can lose weight, its the mindless snacking that adds empty calories.

Anyone else FD? If it goes ok today i might more regularly fast on fridays if i havent got anything on as it sets u up well for the weekend.

Good morning

Fionne your menu for the day sounds amazing and is making my mouth water.

Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Good luck with FD Busybees.
I had a good F D yesterday and woke up feeling good. Then finally found a tape measure and measured myself and now feeling a bit fed up. Didn't think I was carrying too much in my tummy but apparently my waist is 32 which at 5'4" means I don't make it under the less than half height test.
Ho him. Onwards and downwards !

Thanks BCF that’s loads of really helpful advice!
We usually eat dinner around 6.30-7pm as we all eat with the toddler and we generally don’t get in the house until 5.45-6pm so I guess it isn’t that long, it just feels it when I’m still at my desk at 5 and they’ve all gone home an hour ago! Thursdays I eat much later as I swim training at 7 straight from work.
Today I was up just before 5am as the toddler wouldn’t sleep (having got to bed after 11), I’m presenting to a Europe and Africa regional webcast this morning and having my first ever meeting with a VP of any kind at work this afternoon and it’s meant to be a fast day - wish me luck! My discussion with the VP has the potential to be quite a tricky topic so being emotional through hunger would be a very bad idea but I don’t want to leave the fast day to the weekend so I’ll see how I’m feeling.

Exercise: After your doctor's advice, I recommend
+ go swimming - but not breast stroke because that could worsen neck problems
Backstroke would be great, or if the pool is too crowded, them crawl
+ add spin classes, because these are very easy on the joints and back but good for fat-burning and improving fitness
+ You might enjoy Zumba too

Thanks for this, Im seeing a sports physician once my PRP treatment is over and Ill get a good idea of what I can and can't do in the future. One thing for sure though is that I'll never lift a heavy weight over my head or have one on my shoulders/neck again. Im just not prepared to take the risk. I know my Olympic lifting and Crossfit didnt cause my problems but I am surprised Ive got away with it all as long as I did without serous injury due not knowing what was going on in my neck. I used to joke at times when I'd be trying a new lift that I hoped I didn't drop a weight on my head on day - it could easily have happened. Jeez.

Morning all.

Am back to feeling after a FD the way I used to feel just before slipping back into my sugary ways - tired and lethargic and craving everything that makes my waist balloon. I have a special event coming up in September and need to stay focussed - don't want to be frantically trying to recover my waist a couple of months beforehand.

A small SV - down 0.3kg - that's the first SV since 6 January, so it's been a long time coming.

Carfish - my waist (or lack of it) is the reason I'm back to 5:2.

Goals for today. No snacking. Go for a run.

Have a good Friday everyone.

carfish Are you measuring waist at the right place ?
For women, this is at the narrowest point, about 2" above the navel.
For men, this is exactly at the navel.

Check too that the tape is horizontal, not sagging down somewhere

Peachy I googled "mesomorph" and it made me giggle because apparently everyone turns to look at them in the gym in awe and wonder. That isn't me! I'm fairly muscular, with a great big coat of fat over the top! More stocky Welsh pony then Jessica Ennis-Hill.

My FD on Wednesday was cancelled because I was called over to lunch to meet lots of people for the first time, so I'm doing it today instead.

I was tempted to name change for the fikk

Aaggghhh! Posted too soon.

I was tempted to name change for the following but thought others may have similar experiences to share. It also comes back to BCF's point about the importance of NFDs for the long term. Fell off the wagon yesterday with an 2 scotch egg binge as I'd popped to the supermarket on my way home. It was entirely calculated. I looked at the calories for 2 (550) and thought that it was undoing all the good work on Monday's FD, considered it for 5 minutes and did it anyway. I've got this weird thing of eating high fat, high salt savoury things (pork pies, scotch eggs, pasties) on my way home and disposing of the evidence and receipt so DH never knows. Why???

I think it might be some weird teenage style act of rebellion but why do I do it so deliberately. It's not an impulse thing. I'll plan it. Anyone do anything similar?

Anyway, I did pilates an hour after and felt the bile rise into my throat and still have a stomach ache now, so I need to remember this discomfort to stop me doing it again.

I'm one of those people who will continue eating when full because the upside of the taste in my mouth is worth more than the actual pain in my stomach.

Fionne I expect you could also do bodyweight squats and lunges, so long as your problem is with neck /shoulders and not lower back.
i.e. without any dumbbells or barbells, go as deep as you can safely with good form

Good to hear the scales are finally moving a bit, Granny
Have you checked your NFDs ? It is almost always the problem, if you are doing the FDs correctly

Same advice as for slinky's OH:
recalculate TDEE, check for a week if you are around TDEE, how much alcohol, sugar and other carby junk you are consuming, implement healthy 5:2 habits
It is perfectly possible to eat very healthily and still sts / gain though, if you are simply eating more than you burn on NFDs

Great progress with cutting out the snacks, bestbees
Make that a lifetime change, to enable lifetime weight management

lamblossom that thing about eating what you like when you run is so true. People would say that to me and I’d point out that running at threshold pace, for me, for an hour, burns about 350 cals. That’s four chocolate biscuits. Not exactly a massive amount! Was planning Ff today but woke up with headache, incredibly sore boobs, which is normal for my premenstrual two weeks! So will just eat nice food to TDEE today and aim for Mon as FD

cheshire Please never feel embarrassed by saying what has happened.
These 5:2 threads are for friendly support and we've all come a cropper sometime
If we all name-changed for mistakes, half the posts would be random new names !

No food is "banned" on NFDs
Especially you don't have to go low fat on NFDs; just have sensible portions of normal food
Are you restricting your choices too much, bingeing / feeling you have to hide what you eat from your DH; or is he being critical ?

If you fancy scotch eggs, why not plan them as part of a meal. They are ok if you don't have them as a staple, most days
The issue sounds like you had them as a snack between meals;

After a meal, you should feel pleasantly full, but not uncomfortably stuffed / clothes too tight.

Also, vigorous exercise needs a fairly empty tum, to avoid discomfort.
I plan to finish eating a big meal at least 3-4 hours before I train - I also had to learn the hard way, uncomfortable & farting through a few lifting classes !

Hi BCF. Definitely in addition to a meal. Even if that makes me full for the meal. It's pure gluttony.

DH is supportive. In fact he's doing FDs on Mondays and turned up in bed really early on Monday evening to stop himself eating my more, just like lots of us on these threads do.

@melaniecheeks
You cannot just mark place and not say how you are doing

Cheshire
I feel your pain.
As a teenage my snack of choice was half a pound of cheshire cheese - straight from the pack in one session, bin the wrapper.
I still adore cheese
but I try to buy really strong cheeses where I can only eat a little to give myself the melting fat on the tongue bliss
without the settling fat on the hips pain

Cheshire I do exactly that, although mine is worse it’s almost always some form of crisps and I get totally obsessed with one particular type (it’s been goldfish crackers, salt and vinegar kettle chips and prawn cocktail Pringles most noteably) so no protein or anything good at all. I hide it from DH not because he’ll berate me but because he gets frustrated at me self sabotaging like that but then complaining he’s used too much oil in a curry.
It occasionally helps to put the calories in MFP first and reflect but like you I fairly often just say ‘stuff it’ and eat them anyway.

So, as predicted I have STS at 10st 1lb this week. But I'm determined to get into the 9s at the next weigh in so this week I will be extra good. Plus I've just had a cream egg and it's made me feel a bit sick (lunch pudding, not a snack!)

Cheshire we all have ridiculous "f**ck it" times, especially when feeling stressed. Cut yourself some slack - it's not everyday and it would be worse if you weren't fasting as well. No one here will judge you for being human.

Snail- I agree running and walking outside in the country is absolutely fantastic for mental health. I have bipolar disorder and it really benefits me.

Cheshire- you are describing me! Chunky, muscular with a layer of fat!! I always think of myself as a working pony rather than a stallion! I am also similar to you in the eating- I love the taste of food so much I'll keep going even when very full. I particularly love things like pasties (Devon here). This woe is helping though.

Couple of discoveries this week. If I eat cheese it uses up A LOT of calories so Ive started weighing it. Also a square of the most delicious Lidl 81% dark choc is only 65 cals, so a great treat as well as being low sugar (I steer clear of the stuff as I'm an addict!)

Best salad discovery- mixed leaves, tomatoes, cider vinegar, ev olive oil, 30g crumbled blue cheese, kalamata olives, quarter of an avocado and some crispy cooked gammon. SO nice.

Happy weekend everyone. I'm so pleased with myself this week- TDEE Tues Thurs and Fri, two good FDs, 10,000 plus steps every day, two runs, four walks and a weight class. Loved every minute (except for the FDs!)

Go peachy! Sounds like you've had a great week, woohoo!

Well done peachy.

snail I agree too about the endorphins of running, I ran at 8am this morning, 10km through beautiful winter countryside. Loved it.

Good nfd here so far.

Have also walked the dog with dh.

Dh, dsis and I are doing the workweek hustle challenge on fit bit. It is very galling when I come last every time. Neither of us can beat dh who is a builder and never sits down - but even with all my running and dog walking dsis beats me. It shows how sedentary my job is - at least two days a week I am in the car for around 5 hours and sit at a desk all day. I do try and fit in short walks at lunchtime on those days but can't compete with someone who walks to the station and back and to meetings here there and everywhere!

Oh well still motivates me to move as much as possible.

Thanks everyone , I feel better!

peachy I'm from Devon too!! But chunkier than a Dartmoor pony.

Well done Peachy, Blossom and snail on your runs.

Cheshire on the bright side, you’ve admitted it and that’s a huge hurdle. Also it could of been so much worse.
I am a secret binger, and binge utter crap honestly it’s shocking but if I open something I feel obliged to eat it all so I can throw the evidence away.

If you like scotch eggs can you maybe do what BCF suggests and eat it as part of a meal and make them yourself? I used to make them either with a sausage deskinned or mince meat and they were lovely.

Cheshire are you my twin?!! I'm near Exeter.

Well done, peachy Sounds like you had an excellent week

Stay focused, Friday fasters. Not long until supper

Enjoyed a short run through the forest this morning. Some drizzly January mornings, it's been hard to find some motivation. Today though, it was properly bright and beautiful.

Been logging calories on MFP - quite a revelation!! I actually weighed out 12g of mature cheddar at lunchtime for a cheese salad sandwich. Have had roast chicken for dinner with jacket potato and veg, followed by chocolate mousse. (Cadbury's mousse was a waste of calories TBH, but hey!!). Enjoying a glass of wine and watching the crown now and I'm actually a little under my NFD calories.

Well done everyone who did a FD today