5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks BCF

Slinky and peachy pips well done!!!

BCF I feel I have been given free reign since you said to not Fast for a week after the sickness bug. I feel I need an FD to jump back on the bus before I walk far away from the bus stop...

Well done everyone today.

Really winds me up when you see threads saying "slim people how do you stay slim?" And replies saying "run - then you can eat anything you like".

Not. True.

BCF maintenance has been toldn a lot of my thoughts the last few days. Week after next starting 29/1 I’m looking at actually going into maintenance and 2 FD @ 800.

I think 800 cals x 2 would be good for me to avoid the binging as my 2 FD are Set for that reason and I do not want to go back there again.

Every single time I have dieted in the past the day I’ve come off, well I’ve never been that weight again as I’ve gained immediately. So going to try and be careful and sensible.

Does that sound ok? Ps I’m eating some nice carbs beans (mixed beans not baked) and lentils.

Lamb no not true. It makes me very aware tho as I slug a gut to burn 150 cals. That’s not even a chicken breast.

For me excersize + MFP = big eye opener

quacking
I tend to fast - as in only have one meal in the day - but relax about what is in it.
I'm a bit heavier than I'd like at the minute but once I shift the cold I know what I need to do

I religiously MFP and have for years

Food on my nfd.

My toast egg and tomato breakfast

Greek yog with blueberries and seeds, 2 hard boiled eggs

Handful of grapes

2 shredded wheat with half a mug of semi skimmed milk

Gin and tonic x ?

Turkey bean and veg chilli

FDs done for the week I think I'm finishing on about 570 kcal today as I had to have some soup at lunchtime to make my cold seem less miserable. So, small bowl of minestrone soup for lunch and then chicken fajitas with sweet potato wedges (but without the wraps or cheese) for dinner. Yum.

Will be happy to STS tomorrow as I've had a few comfort meals this week.

That’s really great tip, TIP. I only have 1 meal on a FD too and 800 cals is actually quite a lot.

Are you restricted on your NFD? How often do you have treats?

quacking
I never snack ~ I do not have a sweet tooth ~ my only "treat" is alcohol
the whole "treat" culture is rather alien to me

Forgot to report a NSV - attended a Pilates class yesterday and dh commented I looked good in my kit. I did if I say so myself! So thats two NSV's!

Nice one purple

I rarely eat sugar either. My downfall is also alcohol

Food "treats" used to be very occasional
Due to intensive marketing by Big Food, treats have now become part of the daily routine,
hence no longer treats and no longer bring the same joy, imo

I trained my taste buds to genuinely enjoy some healthy treats, which I can have most NFDs if I wish
e.g.
. 92% cocoa choc, 1-2 squares
. celery, melon & onion salad, which I have as a dessert
. baked sweet potato fries, instead of deep-fried ordinary fries

Less healthy treats are much more occasional.

Even lifelong exercisers like me find that in middle age, especially post-menu and 60s, that we cannot eat anything like the crap, or even the same amount of healthy food, that we did for the previous 40 years

A very motivating double NSV for you, purple

re worrying about a ("mandatory") week off fasting due to stomach bug
This illustrates an important step in longterm weight management
you need to learn how to eat "normally" the amount that is suitable for your body

To break the mindset that you are either fasting or over-eating

This is why the NFDs on 5:2 are as important as the FDs for some folk - they teach how to eat for the test of your life, after reaching goal, to avoid regain

Ugh I'm only 33 but already dreading menopause. It sounds like no fun whatsoever

HLbug
The flushes and night sweats were a bit of a drag but the lack of periods is a definite bonus, as is the end of monthly variations in hormones.
Its no great shakes IMHO
and among my gym friends (aged between 45 and 75) its just the way it is

Duck 2 x 800 FDs sounds a good plan for maintenance

• it's what I do too, along with 16:8 most days.

Longterm fasters should be able to estimate their FDs without calorie-counting, so it's really easy

Also for every maintenance plan

Keep up the good habits you learned:

• NO snacking or grazing !
• Weigh at least weekly and return to full 5:2 if you gain 5lb and 1" around the waist (excluding a totm blip)
• Before you go on holiday, plan the date of your first FD back - and stick to it
• Drink lots of water and minimise fizz
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines
• Keep sugary / junky treats within sensible limits and only as part of a meal
• Get enough sleep
• Build exercise into your life

A small glass of wine most days is fine, blossom as the FDs keep 2 days alcohol-free
Try to train yourself to drink sensibly, i.e. around nhs limits

bug The whole no-periods thing is such a compensation !
10 years on and I've really forgotten the inconvenience and discomfort, the planning …

I was lucky and had very minor meno symptoms

• except the biggy of suddenly having to change my WOL to keep waist and weight within limits

Things changedquite a lot during the 10 years preceding, too

I'm now 61 and if I had continued eating as I did at 25, or even at 45, I'd now be a Big Choc Sphere

Apart from eating late again, FD has been a success. Not always easy but not as difficult as I thought it was going to be.

Currently sipping hibiscus tea - I did have some late Tuesday evening but then noticed the aural disturbance I used to get with the start of a migraine quickly followed by the beginnings of a headache. Couple of paracetamol and early night sorted it out, but am trialing the tea again this evening just to check that it was coincidence. Need to stay up until midnight anyway so I can book Friday fortnight exercise class. They are getting ridiculously over-subscribed as the studio is small.

Some great NSVs happening. Keep up the inspiring work everyone!

Thanks BCF I know I need to prioritise no snacking but I do really struggle, maybe for NFDs I should take a small full fat plain yoghurt or a handful of nuts instead of having fruit? Lunch timing is tricky as the canteen and coffee shop are in the office and lunch is served 11.30 to 13.30, there’s an unofficial lunch period of 12-1pm where people don’t try to book meetings but anything after that is fair game so I have 3 days a week where I have a regular meeting at 1pm and after that lunch is finished in the canteen, it doesn’t seem worth refusing to go with my team at 12 but then going at 12.30. Maybe I just need to shift my day a bit earlier and persuade DH to do the same (we work at the same place so take one car).

FD done and managed to finish well under 500 by not having lunch (miso instead) and dinner being a small bowl of soup and roasted vegetables - so no meat or carbs meant less calories overall. Did struggle 4:30 onwards and ended up having dinner at 6pm. Out at a school event this evening so that kept me busy and I only had water there. DH is the only person in real life who knows I am doing ADF and said today that it looks like my face and neck have got slimmer. He is a bit down in the dumps as despite 5:2 his weight is not shifting. Have told him about eating to TDEE on NFDs as not sure he is always.

Last couple of FDs I have found I am sleeping like a log - very deep sleep and feel rested when I wake up. For the first two weeks I was such a light sleeper and kept waking up middle of the night and not getting back to sleep for hours.

Great hearing about all of your days SVs and NSVs. Gud nite.

DrWhy 12-12:30 pm lunch is fine; (I thought you meant 11:30)
it's my usual lunchtime at work; I have no problem lasting until my mini-meal about 7:30 pm (usually after training)

Maybe relevant for others on working days too …

Are you genuinely hungry when you reach for the snack ?
Have a glass of plain water, in case you are thirsty instead
Are you bored / restless ? Go upstairs / to the next building to chat or just walk.

I suggest you look at the content of your meals, because if they are adequate, hunger between should not be a real problem.
It is healthy to feel hungry in the hour before each meal. Don't fear this

All meals should include protein, but check that they are not high GI, which won't keep you full long enough

• Breakfast: avoid sugary cereals, fruit juice or pastries etc

• Lunch: choose a good portion of protein, pile on as many veg as poss, add one (preferably healthy) starchy carb
  Lunch should be filling unless FD of course) to last you until dinner

and check if you are eating any sugary junk:
If you are having a cookie / cake / donut etc for dessert, then cut that out and have your apple instead - and eat the skin too
If your only sweet thing is the latte, they are often packed with sugar. So swap that for say an espresso

• DInner : Is this maybe too late ? If so, discuss with your OH how to make it earlier
  Good not to eat too late, anyway, for general health:
  As I posted on the last thread, research shows that having a meal later than about 7:30 / 8pm significantly increases the risk of developing high BP and heart disease

• If you have several hours between lunch and dinner, then you may need a mini-meal - which by definition contains protein
  Allow say 100-150 cals
  Easiest: weigh out 20g of UNflavoured almonds, put in a sealed bag / pot and take to work. Take a raw carrot to munch as well.

Well done on your FD and compliments NSV, slinky
The good sleeps indicate your body has adapted well to fasting.

When a male OH fasts too, the usual complaint is that they are losing much more quickly - which is because of their different body composition, hormones and generally higher TDEE

So, almost certainly he is eating back the FD deficit on his NFDs, or eating / drinking too much junk
Calculate his TDEE with him, as a rough guide to NFDs
then get him to mfp for one week, as a reality check on portion size, treats,hidden calorie bombs - also on sugar consumption

Both sugar and alcohol hinder fat-burning, so check his consumption is sensible
Important: if he snacks, tell him to stop

FDs: Check he is eating only 600 cals and not adding on exercise cals
Also no alcohol whatsoever and no sugary treats or junk on FDs
If his NFDs are ok, but he is on 800 FDs, he should move to 600 cals