5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Mother hope all will be ok. Do take care of yourself.

Purple your stats very similar to mine. It is very encouraging to see your success. I measure in kg so just trying to convert. I started at 62.6kg beginning of Jan and now down to 59.4. In the summer I was 64.5. Height wise I am just under 5.3 and TDEE just under 1500. Will be nice to have a fellow faster with similar stars for encouragement. Well done on your losses.

Best wishes to DD, m0therofdragons
Do take care of yourself too.

Well done on your SV, purple and your inches NSV

We calculate waist / height (because hips are affected by skeleton type for lean women)
For women, measure waist at narrowest point, usually 2 " above navel
(lurking blokes should measure at navel)

Sounds a good system, duck

Thanks BCF. The website linked by quacking says to measure 1" above belly button but that is not the narrowest point for me. As you say it's more like 2"

Thanks slinky and HLBug

Slinky We can inspire and motivate one another

Well I last posted on the 6th Jan after my very first fast day.

Four weeks later I’m half a stone lighter! Well on my way to my 30 pounds in 20 weeks goal.

I fast mainly Mon and Wed to get them over with at the start of the week, weighing myself Thurs and Sat. I have noticed I can put on up to 1.5lbs on in between some weeks but still a definite loss overall.

I’m starting to up my exercise too with a stationary exercise bike at home but am hoping to get back to running after completing a couch to 5K course last year.

I’m actually finding it quite easy to keep to and I’m not really depriving myself of too much of the nice stuff on my NFDs. I’ve discovered a love of cottage cheese and prawns that I never knew I had too!

Great stuff Wristy. I started on that date too. You have made a real dent in your journey.

I’m 5lb down so going at a pretty steady 1lb a week. Had a bad week this week so will be stricter going forward as I suspect it will get harder to lose as I get closer to goal.

Am guessing TDEE reduces as weight reduces. I haven’t done the maths!!

Good NFD today - porridge, nuts and an apple for breakfast, cheese salad for lunch, cottage pie for tea. No snacking!!!!!!

Yes TDEE does reduce as you lose the weight. The difference between my current and goal TDEEs is 300 calories

I have a couple of days a week where I aim for my goal TDEE instead- just to give me an idea of what the future holds!

Well done on your SV, wristy and on your healthy lifestyle NSVs
Sounds like you have adapted really well and are forming new habits for the longterm

Yes, TDEE reduces as your weight drops.
It's worth recalculating after every stone loss, to check you are adjusting intake to your lighter bod

To speed things up and also to prepare for maintenance, it is useful to have at least one NFD per week on which you eat to the TDEE of goal weight.
Keep at least one NFD on which you generally eat up to TDEE
However, if you aren't hungry, then don't eat - some days you'll be hungrier than others, so it evens out

Well done on your SV too, handmini That's good steady progress
Don't worry, most folk have the occasional more indulgent week

You are correct that the rate of loss is usually slower if you haven't much to lose - ntbo, there is less excess bodyfat to extract as fuel
Also, once you get fairly lean, usually well within health BMI, some of the remaining fat is "stubborn" fat

Stubborn lower body fat is due to hormones, not just calories.
We have 2 types of cell receptors:

• alpha adrenergic receptors ( store fat) and
• beta adrenergic receptors (release fat)

"Pears" have much higher densities of alpha receptors in the bum & thighs,
whereas "apples" have this in their midsections.

Well done wristy and Hand both amazing progress.

I was just about to post to say my TDEE has only reduced by 15 cals and I’ve lost about 3 stone on 5;2. Seems back last year I made a mistake and was using the BMR reading rather than TDEE. It’s actually 200 cals. Whoopsie.

FD complete on 466 cals and kitchen closed.

Thank you. No gin, too tired, but I have drunk coffee by the bucket load. Dd is okay and improving at home. FD scheduled for Tuesday so I have time to feel myself again.

BCF what can help stubborn fat?

Watched dr mosely documentary today on exercise - it was motivating to know that you can improve fitness by HIIT as you always say. I need frequent reminders to keep up the willpower!

Yup, I’m a stubborn fat “pear”!

Glad to hear your DD is improving m0ther - fingers crossed you all get some better sleep tonight.

Mini FD closed at about 900 kcals. It's amazing how my eating habits have changed over the last few months - DH made lasagna for dinner tonight, which he accompanied with both new potatoes and garlic bread (plus some salad leaves). Triple carbs - triple!! I used to eat that without even thinking, and would probably match his portion size as well. Tonight I just had the lasagna plus salad leaves and it was all I needed, and indeed wanted.

wristy and hand congratulations on your progress- you're both off to a brilliant start

quacking your post made me chuckle but also cross on your behalf - you've done yourself out of 200 calories every day for how long?! Think of all the extra foooood Congratulations on nailing your FD though!

As well as a Mini FD I also had a good few inches chopped off my hair today (as I alluded to needing up thread) - I'm expecting to see at least a 5lb loss on the scales tomorrow as a result. That's the way it works...right?!

Bug - yep 200 cals per day since March. I honestly am a complete tit.

Your post rings very true with me, triple carbs is something we do often. We would have lasagna chips and garlic bread. But little things like that that you notice and change can be invaluable I’ve found.

Actually before 5:2 all our meals have been very carb laden. And I’ve made a decision to have a couple of carb free days from now on as I find when I eat them I am hungry and craving food very quickly after. I’ve taken the bad carbs out this month and cravings have completely gone.

Same here - we had pasta chips
And Garlic bread this evening but it was more due to having unexpected guests and rumbling something quick up...

I’m finding it really easy to go over my TDEE. I'm ok if I don’t snack or add the biscuits to my tea break... but that’s easier said than done. Also a terrible water drinker, really need to do better this week.

Munki Important for longterm weight management, not just loss

• Make these your permanent habits:

• Water: Start each day with a glass and keep drinking water through the whole day

• No snacking
  Not even as an occasional treat
  If you want biscuits or other snack food, then have them as your NFD pud, as part of a meal.
  You don't deny yourself, just change the timing

Oh dear. After a great scale victory i have spent two days eating everything. Why do I sabotage myself?

Today no breakfast, two sensible meals a d back to fasting tomorrow. Anyone else do this?

Morning. Just having a read to motivate myself for tomorrow's FD. Thanks for sharing all your losses. It is great to know that I just have to stay the course and I will get there.

I have found a spicy lamb and bean recipe that appears to be too good to be true. The rest of the family can have rice or cous cous or wedges with theirs. Mine will have salad leaves.

A great spin off is that the whole family are eating more healthily. I never thought I would have a conversation about reducing fat in our diets with my dh.

Morning all!

An unintentional FD here as I've caught dd's sickness bug and was up most of the night with V & D. the thought of food is making my stomach turn .. baby dd also was spectacularly sick yesterday evening 😩 hope this does not continue as I am totally drained with last nights constant trips to the loo. DH is not well due to recent major trauma, which makes us a rather poorly family at the moment ! Just dd1 not been touched by the bug yet and I am half expecting a call from Arabic school today saying she's been sick. I'll have to drive in with a bucket. Or two

Don't worry, bestbees It happens, but you have stopped the damage and you're back on the horse
An FD or 2, be mindful of NFDs this next week and you will have hauled it back,
maybe earlier if it was not as bad as you thought

I love spicy lamb tagine, which sounds similar.
I have it, also stews, with a big pile of mixed salad or with heated veg like mushy peas, broccoli, cauliflower
So nice, even on NFDs sometimes

oops, tagine talk was to unescorted

Oh, how rotten for you, juicy
I hope you and family juicy recover very quickly
Remember: NO deliberate fasting for a week after symptoms have gone

While you have the bug, standard advice for adults in Germany is:

• Drink only water, lots of it No tea or coffee, definitely no juice - all these exacerbate symptoms
• Eat only a slice of dry toast when you can manage it No butter or anything else on it No seeds or fancy bits in the bread
• Don't dose yourself with bran or similar - can cause other symptoms

I have done it on a few occasions BestBees.

Last time was September, after a very good run of weight loss I was just 5lbs from target and was at the lowest weight by far. Went on a 3 day binge and put on 7lbs.

It’s taken me since September to get back down to where I was. I was gutted but I’ve not done it since.

It’s made me absolutely determined to stop binging. I now follow the no snack rule and treat a snack as a pudding. I’ve also rearranged my FDs so it can’t happen again.

Hope your DD is beginning to feel better Mother

Some great losses and NSV

I am having a FD today, never done a weekend fast before, so far so good haven't eaten anything, if I get too hungry will have a small lunch otherwise its quorn + veg curry!

Bestbees I have done it every time I get down to a certain weight, its like I'm programmed to self destruct.