5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done Peachy

I’ve done b2b fasts once and it was really ok.

BCF thanks. I’ve downloaded MFP - not a massive fan as DH cooks everything from scratch and it’s all complicated so it takes ages to log. And he rarely cooks the same thing twice.

There must be something going on though, have hardly drunk in January, have traded in amazing and tempting work canteen for taking homemade soup and I haven’t really lost anything, even with doing FDs. The FDs are obviously allowing me to maintain... I do eat quite a lot but I’d say I’m eating the same as before but with less Alcohol and 2 FDs so surely I shouldn’t be staying the same?

MFP for a week sounds a good plan.

Well done those with a loss.

Today not a FD but trying to be good.
Managed to restrict myself to one single jaffa cake from the plates of biscuits being passed around this morning. My downfall is normally the mid afternoon dip though.

My next FD was supposed to be Thursday but might need to change as I've got friends over in the morning and there will be cake and biscuits. I could resist but would feel a bit weird as I'm hosting.
Happy FD to those on a fast.

juicy that's interesting, where did you read it?

So far so good on FD. Currently sitting in a cold village hall watching dd3 dance. Dd2 will then dance and then dh is meeting us to collect so I can go to a school governor meeting. Love a logistical nightmare! Planning salmon and veg for tea but might not actually get home until 9pm.

Also on a FD - soup had run out by the time I got to the canteen so one apple so far and several cups of tea. Dinner will be lentil bolognaise with broccoli and kale I think.

I had one slice of malt loaf as it's all I had - Tesco delivery arrives tonight!

BCF have decided to go swimming at the weekend as it be nice to do a activity with my DD, I’ve not swam for years.

Be a good excuse to get the leisure center timetable and ask about some of the classes and see if I can find something.

Excellent idea, duck Lovely you are having some mither & daughter time, swimming together

Lots of enjoyable nature walks where I am in Germany, snail
In my bike ride to the gym, through the fields I sometimes see small deer and hares.
Once, when I was walking with friends, I could just see a very large bird (I have a visual handicap) but they said it was an eagle.
Also, there is an occasional red squirrel who sprints away from my bike, on my way to work - I hardly ever saw red ones in England

peachy, juicy Comparing 2 single FDs and b2b FDs:
b2b probably has slightly greater health benefits and weight loss, even on 650 cals
BUT only if you don't eat more overall on the 5 NFDs than you did with single FDs

Dr Michelle Harvie used the 650 b2b for her studies, funded by cancer charities.
Her test subjects were overweight women at risk of cancer recurrence and the FDs were low carb.
The women lost weight well and also reduced their risk markers, more than the control group on a standard diet with daily calorie reduction.
She didn't do any comparison with single FDs.

purple Maybe postpone Pilates if you feel really rotten with that double whammy - bad cold & totm ?

re posture:

• Basically, don't slump or slouch forward with your shoulders. That's walking or sitting.
• Sitting, sit all the way back in the chair.
• Work on stretching & flexibility - Pilates should help here

Check posture:
. Stand with the back of your head against a wall, place heels 6" from the wall.
. Your bum & shoulder blades should touch the wall.
. There should be less than 2 " between your neck or the small of the back and the wall.
. A larger gap indicates bad posture and a curving spine

You are so very knowledgeable BCF!! Thank you for your help. I think I'm going to to try a b2b so FD tmrw as well as today. I can't face letting my FDs lag into Thurs!

So 650 tmrw. Fun fun.

Really enjoyed having two small meals today instead of one big one. Had courgette ribbons with mint, rocket and a teaspoon of oil and vinegar with 40g feta for lunch, and 50g smoked salmon with two eggs and mixed leaves for dinner. Perfect.

Malt loaf aaarrhhhhhh I love it!

cheshire Very easy to eat a few hundred more without realising - your body automatically tricking you on NFDs, if you eat to appetite.

iirc, you have had a few social occasions in which you have feasted, so the FDs may just have stopped you gaining'from them.
None of us can eat as we could 10 years ago, without gaining.

On a social weekend, if you are 1500 calories over on Sat & Sunday - easy to do with drinks, nibbles, treats, eating out - that would wipe out the deficit for the whole week, even if you were ok the other 3 NFDs

So, you need to see what happens over 2-3 weeks without feasting.

If you have a low TDEE, say 1500 - 1600, then your FD deficit is smaller than for someone with say TDEE 2000
so you would have to be more careful than most
Similarly if you are insulin resistant - Mosely has a checklist for is - you may not lose well unless you cut out junky carbs as well.

Even if your NFDs from now on have about the same calories as before,
if they are well above TDEE, you may not have a weekly calorie deficit - so 5:2 would stop the gradual weight increase every year or two, but won't lose.

For evolutionary reasons, your body tries hard to retain its fat stores,
so it is usually much easier to gain with a small surplus, than it is to lose with a small minus.
5:2 provides the shock / contrast of FDs and NFDs, which helps overcome this resistance, but you still need a decent weekly deficit.

peachy The best fasting system is the one that is sustainable for you longterm, as an unique individual
and that doesn't increase your consumption on NFDs
Choose your tool

That's cruel of the canteen, DrWho
Focus on your lovely supper and don't get tempted to nibble / fritter away too many of your FD calories
I suggest you keep an emergency tub / Ziploc of say unsalted almonds in your bag: 10 whole ones are about 70 cals, so you could count out say 20 of them.

Well done on the moderate Jaffas NSV, 2kids
If you can make moderation in sweet treats into a permanent habit, then that would be a major step in longterm weight management

An FD is useful when you have to dash between being a power at the PTA and proud mum duties, m0therofdragons
Skipping the normal meal palaver gives you some valuable extra time, as an alternative to cloning yourself.

FD complete. By far this has been my best FD of 2018: I waited until dinner time and had a nutritious, homemade meal and I didn’t sneak any nibbles from the kids. I’ve cleaned the kitchen and put all leftovers out ornaments sight so I’m not tempted to pick at anything later on.

I love reading what the rest of you eat on FDs and NFDs. It’s food porn!

For my FD dinner I had chicken breast with peppers, mange tout and baby corn in a chilli, garlic and ginger sauce.

After you’ve gotten the hang of MFP Cheshire you’ll remember lots of calories and won’t have to count them so much. I usually goes low cal veggies and know which additions are high/low cal. It def. gets easier.

FD done and I'm already in bed as have a yucky cold...again. I've had back-to-back colds since 23rd December and I'm just so cross! None have really taken hold (which I think fasting has helped with) but it's just relentless! Anyway, moan over. DD and DS both in nursery tomorrow so I can spend the day in bed if I'm not feeling any better in the morning.

FD today has been about 550 kcals - chunky tomato and basil soup for lunch, then chicken and veg stir fry for dinner. Well done to all the other Tuesday Fasters! And good luck to those trying a B2B this week. Next FD for me will be Thursday.

FD here - kitchen closing at 517 calories plus a dash of skimmed milk in my tea. Well done to everyone else who fasted today. Am hoping this will go some way of making up for weekend excess. Who would have thought a Bill's salad had 830 calories?? I'll know better for next time!

Fast day complete at 439. Another tough one. I really don't know what to do. Tuesdays are so busy that there is no time to eat but because they are busy I struggle with lack of calories

Wow well done to all the fasters today, loads of you do Tuesdays.

Gearing up for tomorrow. I have made homemade stock in the pressure cooker using the bones from tonight's chicken. So it looks like a soup day.... Lentil and tomato most likely. The rest of the family can have chunky bread with theirs. I have loads of errands at lunchtime to keep me away from food shaped temptation.

Thanks for the encouragement, BCF and Dazzle. Really helpful, BCF, I appreciate your time. Your country walks sound lovely. We have had a couple of holidays in Germany in the last couple of years with the DCs and I've loved it.

Southeast it might have been tough, but you've done it! Well done and you can eat (sensibly!!!) tomorrow. From my previous experience it does get easier and I end up looking forward to FDs. How long have you been doing 5:2?

Well done on good FDs, Maz, Bug, *cajo, southeast
*
I hope the FD and early night zaps your sniffles, bug

southeast Most folk get used to fasting after 2-3 weeks and it becomes easier

Replenish salt & minerals with a hot Bovril cube or a teasp of Marmite a couple of during the day - only 10 cals each

If you are hungry, what is your typical menu ?
+Have protein at each meal, with masses of different veg to bulk it out

• Ready made salads with fish or chicken are excellent choices if you have little time. +Have beans / lentils or cottage cheese, if you are veggy / vegan +At one meal, optionally have a starchy carb, but as you are hungry, best to avoid white rice - try quinoa, brown/red rice, baked or boiled potato (not mash or chips) +Also on FDs, avoid: cereal bars (incl Naked), breakfast cereals, dried fruit, fruit juice. Don't have more than 1 portion total of fruit - in fact, try keeping fruit just for NFDs

unescorted and all the other Wednesday fasters:
Plan your FD menu in advance
and post here to let us know how you are doing and to help stay focused.

I have been fasting for about a year. Lost some weight but I also had some mobility issues which meant exercise or even walking were difficult so it helped me not gain. I have now had surgery and I have been back fasting since Dec. Have lost 4lbs since Jan and have weigh in tomorrow. I only have 9lbs to lose and I am absolutely at final weight so maybe it will just take longer. Thanks for support

FD ended at 544. Feeling fed up. I know the weekend meant cooked breakfast and 3 course dinner but I didn't have lunch and have still put on 4lbs in 3 days. I'm now the heaviest I've ever been when not pregnant or immediately post pregnancy. I did FDs last week on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday and logged everything on the other days. I wasn't expecting a loss but also didn't expect such a big gain. I'll weigh in the morning as I usually do after a FD.

Mother, either your previous weight was wrong or this one is so please doest despair s much because Im sure it will all even itself out.

How did your cooked breakfast and 3 course dinner come in at calorie wise? Are you accurately logging everything and not using guestimate as a means of working out what you're having. Could you start weighing only once a week?

Still here lurking. Today i am fasting and then my proper weigh in for jan. Been avoiding the scales and focusing on habits and have exercised every day this month!. In jan 1st i was 10.7. Target it 9.8.

Food today will be a boiled egg and raw courgette at 3.30ish then tofu stir fry with veg at 7ish. 1.5hours yoga tonight to distract.

mother don't despair, sometimes it can just take a little longer for your body to catch up, are you drinking lots of water?

Some great FD's completed yesterday - well done and good luck for today's Fast Dayers!!

I wonder if I could ask for your advice I am planning a FD for tomorrow but this evening I will go running and as I do 16:8 on NFD it means when I come back from my run I won't eat anything do you think it will make my FD harder or should I have say a banana after my run? Or am I just over thinking it all

Another 2lbs down, with 1lb last week taking me within 6lbs of my goal of 10 stone 10 (I'm 5ft 11 so very tall).
Work dress looks noticeably looser today!!
Feeling motivated. Good luck to all Wednesday fasters