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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

977 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/01/2018 18:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 14:33

Despite the pub lunch with BFF yesterday I managed to eat one slice of tiger bread with a few smears of huumus, some olives, the chicken in my roast with a huge pile of red cabbage and spring greens, and avoided all the roast potatoes, Yorkshire puddings and chips - I ordered an extra dish of vegetables so I had loads. Had a black coffee instead of pudding, and just one large glass of red wine.

Didn't feel deprived at all and wasn't too far over TDEE. Was still full in the evening so just had some crackers and marmite.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2018 14:38

2kids If you don't like eggs, other good FD protein options:

. any kind of fish (not battered) - prawns are very low cal, as is tuna (canned in brine, not oil)
. lean steak or roast beef slices
. lean pork, no crackling or skin
. skinless chicken, turkey
. cottage cheese
. natural yoghurt - Skyr or Greek yoghurt
. beans, especially kidney or chick peas

I'm having my usual FD grilled salmon fillet this evening, with a huge mixed salad, dressed with balsamic vinegar & a teasp olive oil.

OP posts:
2kidsnopets · 29/01/2018 14:48

Thanks bigchoc.
I'm not a huge meat eater tbh, so I mostly eat veg and total yoghurt on fast days and soup for dinner. I'll pass on the cottage cheese too thanks Wink
It's complicated by the fact that I have to cook dinner for kids and DH and I don't really want to make two separate meals, so going to try and eat tiny portions /the veg part of their meal.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2018 14:52

cheshire Some of that weekend binge weight will just be retained water and undigested food
So, 1-2 FDs and good poops should get rid of most of it - provided you don't eat back the FD deficit on NFDs

The general lack of progress in 3 weeks is almost certainly your NFDs - these are supposed to be "maintenance / normal eating" days
but probably the "normal" you have got used to is far more than your body can burn.
That's how the weight gain happened, so you can' continue to eat like that.

We all have special feast days, but these should be very occasional, at least during the weight loss phase - so not every weekend.

To lose weight - and to keep it off permanently - you need to retrain your "normal"

Maybe you eating the same portions as a male OH, or the same as taller / younger / more athletic friends ?

I recommend you mfp for one week, as a reality check on portion size, treats, alcohol etc and to find any hidden calorie bombs
For a rough target onNFDs, use TDEE Calcc* (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)

+If you exercise, there are NO extra calories on FDs

  • and it is best to use the above TDEE calculation, instead of eating back calories that some flattering gadget claims you burned.
OP posts:
RebeccaWithTheGoodHair · 29/01/2018 16:35

2kids not sure if this is any help but to feed DP and DD on my FDs I give them a frozen fish pie on Tuesdays (they both really like it but I'm not keen) with baked beans. I'm not ever tempted to sneak any of that!

And then on Thursdays we all have baked salmon fillet with broccoli (or a salad) and I do them pasta to go with it.

It just means I don't have to 'think' about food at all on Tuesdays (which are my really strict days) and something we can all enjoy on Thursday where I don't feel I'm eating differently from them.

(I've had to swap Tuesday to Monday this week, it's hard on a Monday!)

Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 17:13

Today's observation:

So if I have a prawn salad....I can still have a miso soup, 3 water biscuits, 3 eggs, a jelly and an options hot choc for 508 - This is the most food i have ever managed to cram in on a fd - And makes a big difference as I can stave off hunger pangs

RebeccaWithTheGoodHair · 29/01/2018 18:16

Blimey lamb that's a heck of a lot of food!

Not saying you're eating too much or your calories are wrong btw just amazed that that lot only adds up to 508!

Enjoy!!

Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 18:43

I know rebecca!! I keep checking it and checking it!

Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 18:48

Prawns at 98
3 medium eggs at 210
Combined salad (lettuce, cherry toms, celery, olives, radishes, pickled onions, no dressing) at 73
Miso at 40
3 water biscuits at 42
Jelly at 7 (10 cal pot which is apparently only 7)
Options at 38

Does that look right to you guys?

RebeccaWithTheGoodHair · 29/01/2018 18:49

I'm jealous - my kimchi pitta bread seems a very long time ago now!!

I normally do lots of exercise on FDs but DD is off sick today so I've only managed a 30 minute walk (the dogs are mighty annoyed!).

Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 18:49

I ran 5km at lunchtime and walked the dog.

Feel exhausted now though.

RebeccaWithTheGoodHair · 29/01/2018 18:51

Your salad sounds delicious ... throw in some cornichons for me!!

slinkyme · 29/01/2018 18:55

Lamb that does sound like quite a bit. I have never thought of a prawn salad on FDs as worried it may not be filling enough. But may have to try it.

So got through the day of replacement boiler work. Work not over till tomorrow so we are without heating tonight.

Have survived so far despite 2 visits to McDonald's for a drive through for others - as unable to get to the kitchen all day till now kids had a very rare treat of McDs. Astonishingly only nicked one chip each from each meal. That really tested my willpower as I love McDonald's chippy and rarely allow myself. God knows the calories in 2 fries.

DH picking up a couple of low cal ready meals tonight from Sainsbury's as we now have access to the microwave.

Had contemplated a Chinese takeaway but there was no way we could have managed that under 500 cal plus lack of microwave earlier, DC finishing at different times plus different evening activities.

Wish DH would hurry up though.

Looking forward to two special meal out later this week - a work lunch and An evening out with friends at the end of the week.

Well done to all Monday fasters.

slinkyme · 29/01/2018 18:56

As in you got plenty in there for the cal
Not that the cals were wrong.😉

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2018 19:23

rebecca and any other pita bread fan
I usually eat rye / pumpernickel bread, but sometimes I have Joseph's low carb, low cal small pita breads - great taste
They have oat flour & flaxso a healthy choice and with only 60 cals & 5g net carbs each.
You could probably afford 2 of them

Most low carb sites have them, e.g.

http://www.lowcarbmegastore.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=pita&PN=Josephs%2dPita%2dBread%2d%2d%2d6%2dPack%2d227g%2dLR072%2ehtml#SID=52

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 19:54

slinky amazing will power well done.

snailhunter · 29/01/2018 19:56

Kitchen closed at 411. Tuna and salad for lunch, massive veg stir fry and skyr for supper. Pleased but going slightly mad as sick kids have meant I couldn’t leave house at all today which drives me MAD. Planning v long run tomorrow when DH will be back to do childwrangling!

Iamblossom · 29/01/2018 20:07

snail that's an impressive fd with those challenges!!

purpleviolet1 · 29/01/2018 20:30

Lamb well done on your discovery and your exercise wow! Grin

FD done at 502 calories plus however many cals a drop of milk in my tea was Grin so pleased. I've got into bed now for an earlyish night. I could certainly do with it.

BCF wanted to ask, how should we hold our abs? Should they always be contracted let's say 30% or should they be relaxed? I ask because if I let it all hang out I look 🤰 as my muscles are shot to pieces after abdominal surgery and c section.

On that front, I've been to Pilates the past two weeks and this week I plan to go twice!

Unescorted · 29/01/2018 20:36

I did it. I went with the don't eat anything until supper option. Then had green lentils and smoked mackerel kedgeree with kale with an egg which comes in at a shade under 300 cal.

Big choc I aim for 20 - 30 min of HIIT a day so I went with level 2 to make up for days I don't manage to squeeze it in... Maybe once a week, but then I normally go for a walk so I think I have done the calcs right.

My dh is trying to sabotage my efforts by going out to get wine which is a bit annoying because when he was going through a no drinking episode I didn't have any either. I may have to put up a free to a good home sign at the newsagents.

TalkinPeace · 29/01/2018 20:43

unescorted
Supper only is what DH and I do - we are so used to it now it does not feel odd any more

Unescorted · 29/01/2018 20:51

I'm not a big breakfast person so can happily skip that. I drink black coffee normally so the sacrifice was only lunch, afternoon crisps and the wine avoidance this evening. Dinner without my body weight of butter and carbs may also take getting used to.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2018 21:10

"free to a good home" unescorted Grin
Just don't put him on Gumtree - the MN Litter Tray keep warning about what happens to defenceless pets.

purple do you mean while measuring ?
Don't hold anything in; just measure waist at the narrowest point above the navel - even if that's shifted a bit
Measure hips at the widest point, even if that is on your thighs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2018 21:22

unescorted 20-30 mins HIIT on 5-6 days per week should make you pretty fit, but probably isn't long enough to burn a great deal
So in TDEE Calcc* you could put either light or moderate,
then review progress after a couple of weeks _ tweak fooddown if loss is slow, or up if weight is coming off quickly but you feel hungry.

What really helps:

  • NO snacking between meals
  • Keeping treats sensible: check % weekly cals taken up by sugary treats (cake, biscuits, donuts, ice …), alcohol & crisps etc in TOTAL
  • this should ideally be
Look at it on a weekly rather than daily %, to allow for social occasions
OP posts:
MightyMunki · 29/01/2018 21:58

Kitchen closed at 485, had my coffee and egg in the morning, veggie soup for lunch and some baked chicken and salad for dinner earlier.