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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

977 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/01/2018 18:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Fionne · 27/01/2018 18:34

Well done everyone.

Its almost lights out time for me and I closed the kitchen a few hours ago with about 470 to spare. I'll probably pay for it tomorrow though because its a FD for me.

slinkyme · 27/01/2018 19:09

Well done to all the Saturday fasters. You have done really well.

I spectacularly fell off the FD today. Planned to and was pretty good until dinner time. DH made garlic mussels and we were going to have with chips (small portion of sweet potato fries for me) and baguette for the rest of the family as well. DD saw my fries and preferred these to her regular potato ones. So we swapped and that was it I decided sod it let me enjoy this meal.

Had been thinking about whether fasting on weekends is great as we enjoy family meals together. So for some time have been thinking of moving to 4:3 from ADF. Weight loss has been slow given the amount I fast and I want to make sure that this stays as a way of life although ofcourse once I reach goal I would look to scale back to 5:2 or 6:1.

So I am not going to beat myself up for today. Had a lovely meal with the family while DD chatted about how world war 1 started - she is a history buff.

Am going to carry on with my 3 fasts during the week and for weekends will see what works - fast/no fasts/mini fasts.

Anyway essay over. Hope you all have a lovely weekend. Just to say internal plumbing issues continue and I have asked DH to buy some papaya today - that usually does the trick for me. Fingers crossed.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2018 19:50

Well one on our SV, snail

That's a great Saturday FD, olive

Just Exercise is important for health, but weight loss is 90% determined by what you eat & drink.

If you are "eating to appetite" on NFDs it is easy to unconsciously eat far more than your burn, see pic

I recommend

  • calculate your TDEE, using the link in the OP, setting one exercise level less than you think you do (Mosely's advice)
  • then mfp for one week, because this often brings a shock reality check on portion size / calorie bombs / sugar bombs
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2018 20:07

slinky Many folk who do ADF or 4:3 find they don't lose any more quickly than they did on 5:2, because they eat a lot more on NFDs

  • the "sod it principle" of too frequent restriction Wink

Those additional FDs only speed things up if you eat within TDEE on 4:3 aand within about 110% TDEE on ADF

Also, of course, half the week fasting has a much greater effect on social / family life than 5:2, when there are only 2 days fasting and 5 normal days

For you, unless you have a serious health reason to lose quickly, I recommend switching to 5:2 now
Sounds like your loss wouldn't be much slower, if at all
You can have a nearly normal social & family life, without all this stress, so you are less likely to say sod it.

More importantly, if you don't already eat within TDEE on NFDs, you must learn how to do so - this is what 5:2 teaches
Otherwise, you are likely to regain as soon as you get to goal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2018 20:10

oops, that should have been

Well done on your SV, snail !

< kicks lazy iPad in its electronic arse >

OP posts:
Finsbury · 27/01/2018 20:31

Evening all Smile
This is only my 3rd day of 5:2 and today was a FD which went OK really - had a steak burger and vegetables tonight and the rest of the calories went on milk in 4 coffees so I've bought some almond milk and trying to persuade myself it will taste OK ... don't really fancy it though.

Also did a short run with friend's dog and do feel more energetic than I did 3 days ago so it's got to be good ...

slinkyme · 27/01/2018 20:40

BCF the 'sod it principle' made me laugh. Yes indeed that's what happened today. I am generally quite good on keeping to TDEE most days and historically 5:2 didn't work as well for me as 4:3. So I think I would scale back to 4:3 for now and see how it goes. I do find the gap between FDs on 4:3 easier to manage than the 5:2. Far too many NFDs in between on the 5:2 for me. But let's see how it goes.

Thanks for the advice - it's really kind of you that you take the time to write to all of us and give us some solid clearly well informed advice.

Iamblossom · 27/01/2018 20:44

finsbury I drink tea and coffee black...with sweetener.
If you don't make it strong you'd be surprised how little milk makes a difference..

quackingduck222 · 27/01/2018 22:00

FD done I was busy chatting when preparing tea and forgot my FD pickles, thought my plate looked a bit sparse. Accidentally in at 361 cals.

Well done to everyone else.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/01/2018 22:35

Well done, duck, finsbury

OP posts:
Unescorted · 28/01/2018 08:27

Checking in. Thanks for setting up a supportive friendly place to keep me on track.
I went for a health check before Christmas. I have high cholesterol and am overweight.

Stats
Weight 77kg
Height 173 cm.
Age 47
BMI 25.7
BMR 1455
TDEE 2001 (nice to know that I am very average)

Weight has crept on after I damaged my knee while out running. I kept eating my exercise enabled calorie intake but doing significantly less exercise.

My 2 problems wine and serving size. I don't particularly snack or have an overly sweet tooth. Not a fan of chocolate. I do love crisps, salad dressing, bread, cream and roasted potatoes.

I plan on cracking this with salads (I just need a low calorie dressing substitute )and soups
I have decided that Monday and Wednesday fit best into the family schedule. The family have been warned that they will be soup or salad days with a good chilli kick (if food is really spicy I eat less).

Justanothernap · 28/01/2018 10:06

Thanks duck dazzle & lamb that is encouraging. BCF I think I might go back to MFP for a bit to check the whole calories in calories out equation - I didn't think I was with all the FDs & 16/8 but it's annoyingly easy to kid yourself. I've been floating around the upper 10s for ages it seems. I really want to get to 10.7.

Anyway Good to hear all the successful fasters out there. I will be on it tomos. And welcome unescorted sounds like you have a good plan. I usually fast mon & wed too.

quackingduck222 · 28/01/2018 10:39

Unescorted- this sounds the ideal plan for you.

Anyone fasting today? I’ve got a busy day planned so may throw a mini FD as I’m going to have no time for lunch today.

slinkyme · 28/01/2018 10:48

Despite a failed FD yesterday hopped onto scales this am and I dropped 0.5kg from lowest weight so far. Am over the moon. Made a conscious effort to drink lots of water yesterday so wondering if they are linked. In any case will continue with the water as generally a good habit to get into.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2018 11:05

Well done on the water NSV, slinky
Drinking lots of water does help your body burn its fat and also helps reduce retained water.

just Many people can lose the first chunk of weight even while averaging over TDEE on NFDs
After a certain weight though, when there is not so much "easy" bodyfat available to burn, you need to be within TDEE to progress.
Also, as you lose each stone, TDEE reduces too

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2018 11:06

Welcome, unescorted Smile
Several of us came to this WOE to either help or avoid health issues.

For TDEE calc, remember to use one activity level lower than you think you do (Mosely's tip)

On FDs, I usually have salad too, with a salmon fillet or steak strips.
I dress it with vinegar or lemon and a teasp of olive oil
My alternate is a prawn or beef stirfry, with lots of veg

I know some folk find soup for FD lunch works well, but personally I don't find even chunky soup is filling,
so if I have 2 meals on FD, then the smaller meal is natural Greek or Skyr yoghurt, with a teasp cinammon & a few berries

OP posts:
OuchBollocks · 28/01/2018 11:10

FD here. Going to try having the bulk of my calories at lunch rather than holding out for dinner. Tuna steak and green veg for lunch, then I'll have a boiled egg and miso soup while the children have dinner.

Fionne · 28/01/2018 11:52

Duck, I’m fasting today. It’s the start of the new week where I am and it suits me nicely.

I was going to be doing a set meal plan from the 5:2 BSD recipe book but I changed my mind after one of my boys phoned and asked if I’d make him prawn curry. So that’s what I did.

I ate very sparingly for lunch. Just 5 prawns, 2 tablespoons of brown rice, a very small potato, and 3 spoons of the curry gravy that had coconut milk in it and is like a middle eastern Thai curry. I served it up for myself on a side plate and it was enough. And I won’t be tempted with it again today because I’d made it for his family and it went home with him.

Breakfast - none due to workmen turning up early and it being non stop for a good few hours. But I am going to have my breakfast for my dinner, just a bigger portion of it, 3 scrambled eggs and 2 slices of smoked salmon.

I’ve logged it on MFP already and I’ve not used up my 800 calories. My carb intake for today will be at 17 percent - about 31gms out of the 40gms I’d planned.

I’m really enjoying doing this and all the moreso after yesterday when my daughters came round and went through a wardrobe full of unworn, previously too small sized clothes with me and got me sorted out with 6 new outfits. We then threw 6 of my current outfits away. It was a good day.

HLBug · 28/01/2018 11:57

Fionne I love it when you can go "shopping" in your own wardrobe and find lovely pieces of clothes that now fit again!

slinkyme · 28/01/2018 12:23

Fionne loved reading about your day. Best bit about the new outfits.

quackingduck222 · 28/01/2018 12:24

Wow that’s great, will save you buying some clothes for a while.

Iamblossom · 28/01/2018 12:55

Fionne that would be one of my favourite NSVs.Smile

Was hoping for a mini today but have been unexpectedly invited out for a pub lunch with BFF...will see if I can eat reasonably low calorie, have only had a banana and a 0% Greek yog so far and have swum a mile this morning.

There is usually Winewherever BFF goes however...Confused

OuchBollocks · 28/01/2018 16:12

Yikes, I have just agreed to go to a uni reunion at the end of June. I can't go fat...

TalkinPeace · 28/01/2018 17:08

Ouch
My 30th one a while back was a blast - but we all admitted we'd lost weight for it (esp the guys!)

BigChocFrenzy · 28/01/2018 19:46

Enjoy your wardrobe NSV, Fionne
I bet your daughters & the rest of your family are impressed
That's so motivating when you can wear old favourites that you haven't been able to get into for a while -and dump the old tents you hated.
It shows the effect of all the retained water plus some bodyfat that you have got rid of.

ouch I usually have nearly all my cals at lunch, because my training is either morning or early evening
So, I eat either right after training, or I train after my meal has plenty of time to settle in my tum

OP posts: