5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks BCF that make sense and its something I did wonder about but because its working I was quite happy to continue till it didn't anymore and had to be reconsidered.

To be honest the mention of ketosis horrifies me because all I can think of is bad breath. Its why Ive never considered Atkins. I thought ketosis happened at less that 20g of carbs and to know it can happen at 50 means I'll now get my girls to check my breath on my next FD. I'll go down to 100 gms a day on NFD's though because I believe ketosis doesn't usually happen at that level and for now I just can't see past the halitosis.

Re white bread etc. Im eating well. I don't eat white bread etc and haven't for years. Its why the mediterranean approach to the BSD suits me but I think I explained all of that before so I wont bore you with it again.

So your current WOE is definitely much better than your old one
but you may not improve your health issues as quickly or as much a you could on proper 5:2 BSD - if they are caused by preT2
You won't be burning visceral fat as quickly as on proper 5:2 BSD and the rapid loss may tail off before it would otherwise have done

Quite honestly Im not looking for a quick solution. I have a situation in my day to day life that can mean a lot of pressure so I made a decision recently to reduce my stress levels wherever else I could. Going at this hell for leather wouldn't be good for me and I know I wouldn't be able to do it anyway and it would result in failure and a huge sense of disappointment. Im happy to just plod on.

To really help your preT2 / T2 condition, I suggest you don't exceed 100g at most, preferably no more than 75g carbs
With the 2 FDs, I think you can get away on NFDs with exceeding the usual low carb 50g limit

For sure I'll go down to 100g.

I really appreciate the help you are giving me. Thank you. Im away to set up my MFP with the new carb allowance for tomorrow.

Sorry BCF - 100gms is 20% of my TDEE so how would I divide the remaining 80% up? What percentage protein and what percentage fats.

thank you

Fionne - I think the ketosis thing can vary from person to person. I thought it was under 50g. Easy way to tell if your interested is to get some ketostix. I’ve dabbled in the past with them for curiosity really.

Blue, hope you get better soon. I’m on medication for my headaches but If i I start to feel them come I on I take ibuprofen and drink lots before it gets really bad. If it happens to fall on a FD I may just have a small piece of cheese a boiled egg or some ham slices to take the edge off. I normally just have the one meal but n a FD but sometimes it just helps to have something very small to eat.

and our secret club

That made me laugh. It seems one way or another we just have to have our secrets.

Anytime in the past when I tried to lost weight I'd feel as if I was about to explode with the pressure of it. But doing it this way has me feeling calm and quite serene to the extent I find myself not wanting to get all het up by having to explain it. I really do just want to get on with it quietly but then I wonder at times if its also because Ive made other lifestyle changes that mean if I think something would raise my blood pressure i try to avoid it. I think talking to my niece would have raised my blood pressure - just the same way I would perhaps raised other peoples in the past when I'd be asking them how they'd lost weight.

On the other hand my kids all reckon Im mellowing and Im just enjoying a different lifestyle all round.

duck Some ignorant people are just suspicious of any new development that hasn't been endorsed by the "right people"

However official endorsement, often only comes when business can make profit out of something
Fasting doesn't bring bigger profits to food manufacturers or weekly diet clubs - those are serious opponents

Despite this, quite a lot of doctors do 5:2 themselves and some recommend it to their patients.

Slinky and Maz, sorry, I was also blethering away to you both re the secret club.

Quacking I finally admitted to a good friend that I was doing 5:2 expecting her to tell me off for a disordered way of eating her response was actually ‘oh yes, I know some doctors who do that’ - great relief!
I weighed in this morning after a FD so a bit of a cheat and had lost 7.5lb in 2 weeks so I need to check tomorrow. I’ll be delighted if that’s about right. Depressingly though it puts me back to where I was a few weeks after giving birth and at 6 months pregnant - so still a good way to go! Probably another 1-1.5st, hoping that’s realistic by mid-may when I’m a bridesmaid.
After yesterday’s FD today was at least 100 cals over TDEE and Wednesday was even worse (formal dinner with 3 courses and wine in the evening) so I need to be strict and keep the weekend NFDs on or Unser TDEE. I’ve managed to fit in a bit of exercise this week but less than last week so I need to up that again too if I want to continue the loss.

Fionne Your health is your #1 priority
Please don't let (unjustified) fears of bad breath put you off ketosis

Ketosis is the aim of the BSD and most low carb diets, both to boost fat-burning and to get the benefit of reduced cravings
However, the moderate amount of ketosis at 50g is probably not enough to affect breath noticeably for most folk and also may not change the colour of keto-strips (the little sticks that test your urine for ketones)

Only low carbers who don't clean their teeth often enough, or don't use mouthwash after meals, have bad breath; so no worse than coffee drinkers - stale coffee breath - YUK !

Macronutrients 5:2 BSD
Look at the types of food you are eating, that they are what the BSD specifies, rather than calculating % of each macronutrients

Carbs
Don't look on 100g as a % of your TDEE, but purely as a limit of 100g carbs

• remember this includes fruits too, which have quite a lot of carbs - almost all sugar - for not many calories

Avoid:

• added / hidden sugars and
• cut out white rice completely - since you reacted so badly to it the other day - and no wheat bread or other baked wheat goods, either.

Before planning your rye bread etc, do make sure you include those carbs that Mosely specifies as an essential part of the BSD:

• Masses of different non-starchy veg; aim for 5-7 portions on NFDs, 3-5 portions on FDs. You may need to build up to this.
• One portion of beans / peas / lentils most days, because these are proven to help blood sugar control, even though they contain some starchy carbs
• Unflavoured Greek yoghurt at least weekly, daily is fine - to support gut health - also a few carbs there.
• At least few nuts & seeds most days - watch out, many flavourings are packed with sugar / dextrose etc, e.g. "smokehouse / smoked" nuts are carby
• A portion of berries at least a couple of times per week. Eat only unprocessed fruit, not fruit compotes or sauces, to lower the GI.

Protein:
I would personally just ensure you have a good protein portion at every meal.
Few people actually lack protein, unless they are disorganised vegans / vegetarians (very different from sensible ones)

Fish is a great protein choice, all kinds, but especially "oily fish" like salmon, sardines etc

However, if you want to calculate too, then set a rough target of grans, not a %:

• On FDs, around 40g protein (that's not portion weight, but the grams of protein that mfp gives you)
• On NFDs, 0.8g per kg bodyweight, e.g. if you weigh 100kg, then 80g protein - more is ok if you prefer the food, but not necessary.

Fats:

• In BSD, include olive oil most days, because of its proven health benefits, especially for reducing the risk of heart disease and high BP.
  Drizzle over salads or over roast veg, meat, fish; use it for frying

• Otherwise, don't try to specifically add oil /fat, just have what brings flavour
  With the olive oil, there would be sufficient oil/fat in fish, meat, cheese to give you plenty for low carb.

Well done on your SV, drWhy
Look at what you have achieved so far and pat yourself on the back

"The past is a foreign country - you did things differently there"
(to mangle L.P Hartley)

I'm loving being part of a secret, maybe even subversive, club !
< swaps usual sergeant-major cap for a 007 trilby >

Morning all

Had a NFD yesterday and felt really pleased by the end of it that I ate in a controlled manner.

Breakfast was a bit carby but small.

Lunch was a big filling salad.

Dinner was out but had only one third of pudding and one v small glass of wine which for me is great (wine is my downfall). I was really pleased I chose to be driver as it forced me to stick to minimal alcohol.

Have a good weekend everyone. KOKO.

Well I practically doubled my tdee yesterday with gin, beer, peanuts, curry and chocolate. I did run 10km and walk the dog for an hour but we all know it's what you put in your mouth that has the impact. I will be really disappointed if I have taken a step back come weigh in on Monday, but I did have fun with my sisters so will treat it as a mindful splurge.

I will keep myself in check today and may try a mini tomorrow like I did last Sunday.

Happy weekend everyone!

Morning all, especially to any Saturday Fasters, I reckon that has to be the hardest day of the week to fast.

I will be having a NFD but eating within by 16:8 window, I have just set up my MFP and calculated by TDEE, played about it bit with that and came to the conclusion I need to work out how to gain a few inches, wonder if hanging from the door frame will work!

Have a great weekend everyone and Happy Fasting!

Thank you BCF, and good morning to everyone else.

Im absolutely losing the will to live when trying to reconcile the recipes in the BSD recipe book with whats printed there and what MFP calculates. There isn't even consistency in the book itself and some of the recipes that are for one serving are down as two and vice versa.

This recipe in particular just doesnt make sense. Nothing adds up. One serving is worth 300 calories according to the menu plan in the BSD 5:2 recipe book but the nutritional value is all skewiff. For e.g. - how can one large chicken breast between 2 people only result in 4gms of protein each?

Today is not a good day

THAI RED CURRY SERVES TWO

CALORIES 300
PROTEIN 4G
FAT 25G
FIBRE 2G
CARBS 14G

1 large chicken breast,
sliced ½ onion, chopped
1 tbsp olive oil
1 large garlic clove,
diced 2cm root ginger,
3-4 heaped tsp Thai red curry paste
1 red pepper,
½ 400ml tin coconut milk
½ tbsp Thai fish sauce
½ tsp lime zest or kaffir lime leaves
½ cauliflower,
grated Generous handful of fine beans

Weigh in 1lb lost. I'll take that tbh but these few pounds are hideous.

Fionne that recipe book is well known to be very wrong. I’ve never made anything from there myself but when I was doing it I was on a group on Facebook and they were constantly complaining that there was a huge discrepancy betweenit and MFP.

I’ve just looked up a large chicken breast for example
Last one I had was 187g, protein 45.2g, fat 4.2g, carbs 0, cals 259. So for that portion alone between 2 it’s more than 4g protein

FD here today, I’m going to try and keep busy. Good luck to the other fasters.

Chin up lamb, these things happen sometimes and at least you had a good night. 1 night can’t undo a good week.

Last few pounds

SV for me - now 10st 9. So down 4lb in two weeks. Very pleased!

I am also a secret faster! Only DH knows. I never tell anyone when I have a goal of any kind because they always ask you about it whenever you see them...

2lbs on. What!? Two FDs, one mini fast day and three lots of exercise instead of one. I don't mind telling you I am pissed! Can only think I've been eating more subconsciously due to exercise. Or something. I'm going for a run now to cheer myelf up.

Just - that’s disheartening. Similar happened to me last week and I gained. It came off the following week and I’m now loosing again. Just stick with it. Try checking your measurements instead as it can show as inch loss instead.

Good plan go for a run and take your frustrations out on that!

Well done snail that’s fantastic!

just upthread I wrote your post two Mondays ago almost word for word. By the next week nearly half a stone had shifted. Your body will catch up with you I promise.

Hi folks.

That’s very disheartening Just especially after all your hard work. Hopefully, it’ll be temporary and you have a whoosh day soon when your weight drops.

Trying to eat mindfully today, so I’m on here to keep myself focussed. So far I’ve had 2 rashers of bacon, 2 eggs, an apple and half a small cupcake.

Having a good FD today already closed the kitchen at 523c. Off to the cinema now so won't be in the house till bedtime.

Bloody good effort on a Saturday olive

Well done olive.

Just had chicken breast and roast veg for dinner. That’s the kitchen closed for today. Really happy with today’s NFD. Definitely under TDEE.