5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I just made a tomato and red pepper soup and I was able to copy and paste the recipe from google into MFP which then read the ingredients and worked it all out for me.

I think I’m a premium member and it’s one of the features. It saves a bit of time.

Hello all. I'm new to this and did my first FD yesterday which was OK really. What I'm finding more of a challenge is the non FD days.
My TDEE is around 1600 and I think I've been used to eating a LOT more than this. I am still wondering if I would find low carbing easier as you aren't limited on how much you eat - though you are limited on the foods you can actually have. Whereas in 5:2 I suppose you can have anything within moderation? So it feels like a choice between being greedy with limited foods, or being sensible with all types of foods. Aaarrghhh! Got day off work today and too much time to think about things

Having done both Finsbury I find 5:2 much easier.

Low carbing is really hard to maintain if you are out and about, very restrictive when trying to eat with family etc.

Plus isn't addressing your greedy tendencies a good thing? boring but true?

I am down 1kg since yesterday (and 0.6kg last week, 2.7kg since I started three weeks ago). My scales may be on the fritz but I’ve weighed three times.... I may start saving my weigh ins for the day after my second FD in future.

Morning all - sounds like you all aced your FDs yesterday, despite some serious challenges.

Quacking that's an amazing loss and shows what's possible with determination and support.

Hi Finsbury - sometimes with a FD 'okay' is as good as it gets so well done for a successful first one. Personally I'm not into low carbing as I'd miss too many of my staple foods and there's nothing like telling me I can't have something to make me crave it even more! A recipe for disaster for me. I'm surprised that low carbing means you can eat what you want though - goes against the grain of calories consumed needing to be fewer than calories expended to lose weight.

My goals for today - no snacking; gym - done; no snacking; easy run this afternoon; no snacking; Friday .

Have a great Friday everyone.

Blossom, yes you're right. Bad habits. It's crept up on me slowly and I've got used to eating too much. I suppose I could sometimes do an extra FD if I overdo things. Does that work? Think i've got a discipline problem

GrannyPenny I might not have got it right but I thought you could eat a lot of certain types of foods with low carb diets. But only certain foods. I don't think you count calories at all. Could be wrong!

you don't counts cals you count carbs - but you can't gorge on low carb foods limitlessly.

Finsbury you could do a min plus 2 fds? 1000 or below.

*mini

Finsbury/ I’ve done a few low carb diets in the past. Atkins I did, was a couple of stone overweight at the time as my normal eating was appalling back then, stuck to it religiously for a month with no calorie counting and lost nothing not even 1/2 pound.

Blood sugar diet is great in the fact you can drop a lot of weight quickly but it’s low carb and under 800 cals a day. It’s very hard physically and mentally.

But 5:2 is amazing, you fit it in around your life and your not constantly thinking about food 24/7.

You can combine 5:2 with low carb. I think the variation is called 5:2 BSD so within the diet principles of BSD. Low carb food and fast 2 days. This works amazing well, I’ve been doing this since Jan 1st to try and undo my Xmas gain and as a real push to get to my target.

Love the sound of the new flat @BigChocFrenzy - only question is whether there is a good cake shop not too far away as well ;-)

Finsbury
Welcome to the gang.
The point of5:2 is that its a way of eating that happens to result in weight loss for those with weight to lose
and that allows easy maintenance for those without
which is really rather cool

BCF that sounds amazing, no more riding home in the snow

Yes, with the amazing knowledge of what I’ve learnt from this thread I am confident that yoyoing will be a thing of the past. As long as I don’t binge! But it seems scheduled treats are definitely working for me. Gives me something to look forward too. I don’t like the idea of using food as a reward but if it keeps my face out of the snack cupboard that’s a bonus in my book.

Congrats, quacking, what an awesome story.

What works for you is so personal, isn't it? My mother had amazing success with low carbing - she lost loads on the original Atkins and has kept it off eating bacon and eggs for breakfast every morning. But I just couldn't do it. I love bread and cakes and home baking and I have an absolute horror of fatty meat - the idea of lots of very high fat stuff just makes me feel ill.

Snail most definitely. It’s not the first time I’d tried Atkins either and same story both times. A few from work were on the same time as me and doing amazing and me nothing.

Yet now when I low carb just not Atkins it falls off. I don’t understand it.

I’m doing the 5:2 BSD and it’s working really well for me.

My TDEE is about 2300 per day but I’m on about 2000 as I don’t want to eat the full allowance. I cant fit it in. But on days like today I’ve had about 1700 and it’s almost bedtime. I’ll have a cappuccino in a little while though and that will take me up closer to my 2000.

I have the BSD recipe book and the rule of thumb is no more than 50gms of carbs per day. If you work that out it’s 200 calories of carbs per day. That’s 25% of the 800 calories per day you have on the plan so I decided to have 25% of my 2000 calories as carbs. It’s 500 calories per day which is 125 grams. However, there are days when I go up to 35 percent and that’s ok for me because I now check my BS levels daily out of curiosity.

I’m doing really well this way. I can feel my body doing what it has to be doing and to date I’ve lost just under 7 kilos in two weeks. I can also tell that the scales will have shifted again on Monday.

I look at everything I eat now and I don’t waste calories. I’ve even given up sugar for the most part. But that said I’ve not become a ‘diet bore’ and people don’t really know what I’m up to unless I tell them. They can see I’ve lost weight but more often than not they say - oh your letting your hair go grey, I thought you looked different.

It’s a funny old thing this 5:2 because I find that in real life it’s kind of rendered me silent. It’s something I’m very quietly doing for me and when my neice said to me today Aunty please tell me how to do it, I found that I didn’t really want to explain it so I sent her some links. And that’s quite selfish really when you consider everyone on this thread is helping each other out. But who knows? Maybe I need the energy in real life for getting on with it and that’s all I can do for now.

Fionne I completely understand about keeping it to yourself. I feel the same. I think it's because we are on our own personal journey with this. And whilst changing our weight we are also transforming other aspects of ourselves - maybe our confidence, self esteem, choosing to make us a priority. So it is very personal.

Well done, quacking! That’s an amazing anount if weight to lose.

I haven’t been on the thread much lately and this is only my second FD of Jan. . Feel a real energy boost after today’s FD though, the last one was a real struggle.

I’m the same Fionne. Other than my DH and DSis, no one knows I follow 5:2. It’s like the secret service!

Second FD today, after first one on Monday & mini one on Wednesday (just worked out this way this week. Normally just do two FDs). Struggling a bit today. Probably as I've exercised & don't usually on FDs. I find that tough but I know plenty don't. Anyway. Weigh in tomos. Will report back! Oh and really like the inspirational stories bug & quacking

Finishing up here at 502. Weigh in tomorrow. Fingers crossed

Mini FD today - just polished off some venison meatballs, yum. I ate over TDEE yesterday due to a take away lunch (work celebration) and then DH had made my favourite fajitas for tea, but I only had a small portion.

No more activities planned until a weekend away early February, phew.

Finsbury All foods & calories are not treated alike by your body
A calorie is not just a calorie

Those with T2, preT2 will find it difficult to lose on an ordinary diets with starchy carbs, even with a good calorie deficit.
So those folk really need to low carb at least for a few months, until maybe their metabolism corrects itself to some extent and they can move to low-medium carb … but probably never to even a healthy medium or high carb maintenance.

Some low carbers combine it with 5:2, specially if they are "hard losers"
That works well, e.g. various forms of Mosely's BSD, which is Mediterranean low carb.

For those with healthy insulin metabolism, scientific studies have shown you can eat about 8% more of "healthy" cals, compared to a junky / boozy diet, i.e. the famed '"metabolic advantage"
So a low carb diet probably allows you that 8% extra, if your previous WOE was high junk / treats, but maybe not if it was healthy.

The idea of low carb is that the high fat & low carb food satisfies you, so that you don't want to eat more than your TDEE
BUT, it's not actually true that you can eat all you want …… if that is more than your body can burn, i.e. your TDEE

The Atkins New Diet Revolution book (by Jeff Volek who took over after Atkins died) states in a footnote on page 57 of my old paper copy (I have a geeky memory for such facts !) that the average woman (i.e. TDEE 2000) will lose low carbing on about 1600 cals.
That page iirc discussed people who weren't losing as expected.

The problem is: some people do not feel properly full on low carb, even if they load up on fats.
So noone feel bad if that's you. You are NOT greedy or weak or stupid.
It's not true that all low carbers will feel satisfied: some people will, but some won't - no matter how long they low carb, or how few carbs & how much fat they consume

It's probably determined by how readily your body is able to process its own fat for fuel, so maybe an aspect of insulin metabolism
This is known to low carb pioneers like Dr Michael Eades, who mentioned this in his blog as far back as 2008

So, if low carb works for you, that's fine
If you can stay on it permanently, that's brilliant
If not, try something else, at least for your longterm WOE. Like 5:2 ?
btw, people with some medical conditions, e.g. existing kidney or gall bladder issues, may be told by their doctor not to low carb

There are some people who definitely shouldn't fast:
e.g. as I warn in the OP, noone with an ED should fast
Also some folk with medical conditions must check with their doctor

Summary: No diet is suitable for everyone. Pick what works for you and is safe for you

Fionne If you are doing 5:2 BSD, then you can't scale up carbs from BSD for your NFDs

Sorry, T2, carbs & insulin metabolism don't work like that
That 50g came from the well-known standard low carb WOE, i.e. for people eating TDEE or a few hundred cals below
This is the limit at which people go into / out of ketosis

On 5:2 BSD, you are supposed to eat the same kind of food as on standard BSD, on NFDs too, just far more of the veg, fat & protein
Main rules for BSD NFDs:

• No starchy carbs, especially white rice, white bread etc
• No more than 2 portions fruit - avoid high-sugar tropical fruits or dried fruit e.g. banana, mango, pineapple, raisins, prines

You are feeling better because you are losing a lot of weight, with the FDs forcing you into ketosis 2 days per week.
Your other 5 days are not as high carb as before, but sound moderate carb rather than low carb, especially at 35% carbs

So your current WOE is definitely much better than your old one
but you may not improve your health issues as quickly or as much as you could on proper 5:2 BSD - if they are caused by preT2
You won't be burning visceral fat as quickly as on proper 5:2 BSD and the rapid loss may tail off before it would otherwise have done.

To really help your preT2 / T2 condition, I suggest you don't exceed 100g at most, preferably no more than 75g carbs
With the 2 FDs, I think you can get away on NFDs with exceeding the usual low carb 50g limit

Don't limit non-starchy veg or beans / lentils / peas, but I suggest you allocate 25g per day for starchy carbs & fruit TOTAL, e.g. your rye bread, potato, sweet potato, brown/red rice or berries, apple, pear

Obviously, if you can't stay below 100g, then it's better to do what you can sustainably
However, give this a try with lower carbs and see how you feel.

Slinky, maz and fionne I totally agree with what you all say about 5:2 (and our secret club) I’ve accidentally let slip before and used the word fasting or intermittent fasting and it causes negative responses. I’ve had a grown adult even approach my my Mum and ask her about my “eating disorder”

I hate to say it as this is my friends I’m talking about but a lot of people are uneducated about 5:2 and it does cause a lot of misconceptions unfortunately,

Well done on your FDs just & south and max on your mini.

Just had a meal out and don’t know wether it’s my mindset has shifted and my good habits from 5:2 have kicked in or my stomach has srank but I ate a lot less than I normally would. I’m full but Not stuffed as I wanted to avoid that awful stuffed and can’t move feeling.

Hi all just thought I'd report back, turns out I've got a stomach bug so not a migraine which I'm really pleased about and once I'm fully recovered I shall fast again probably not till Thursday next week. Those that also suffer with headaches do you find having two meals on FD's works better that one or makes no difference?

Quack your weight loss is amazing, well done you.