5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks Granny I’m willing to give anything a go!

Today was an NFD and ate just over TDEE, mainly because I couldn’t resist the free muffins and pastries they were giving out at a work event - ate half a muffin as desert, so not a snack and not great following a lunchtime curry either I guess the small achievement is that I turned down naan bread, poppadums etc! Salmon, potato, tomato and asparagus baked in the oven for dinner - yum!
I then managed an epic 3.5km swim this evening. Mainly thanks to my awesome DH who I sometimes moan about but he had a whingey teething toddler in bed with him last night, collected him from Nursery at lunchtime as he was running a temperature and miserable the agreed to have him all evening while I went for my swim training. I was going to take him overnight but when I got home they were both in bed! Feeling chuffed with my swim but rather guilty about abandoning DS and DH!
Well done to all those who’ve completed Monday fasts, I have mine to do tomorrow.

Hi everyone!

I'm returning after a long time away. I just couldn't get back into the 5:2 swing and brain wasn't going for it so tried sw. To be fair it worked but I just can't accept cuppa soups, muller lights and Iceland ready meals. I like the food I cook, which is on the whole healthy I just eat too much of it.

I'm much more ready this time and had a great fd yesterday. Fairly normal day today and I plan another FD tomorrow - not really planned it so need to mfp tomorrow and pick up some soup. Fingers crossed I can get into the swing of it as I have 1 stone 7lbs to lose!

Well done on your FD, handmini
You've developed an FD system that works well for you

cajo As you've mfped last week, that sounds like a temporary blip (you'd mention if totm could apply ?)
Stay focused and next week's trend should hopedully be downwards

That's a cunning plan, ouch, not to bring change for the vending machines

cheshire A rough rule of thumb for most folk is that 1" around the waist represents about 5lb fat
So 4cm would be nearly 8 lb / 3.6 kg

Welcome back, mother
I'm not sure why you ended up with that kind of FD menu if you don't like it:

FD meals should be nutritious if possible, minimally processed, the kind you like to make

I don't recommend cuppa soups - almost no nutrition there

• and those Muller Lights are an abomination from iirc Weightwatchers, certainly not 5:2

Popular FD meals:
The BBC Good Food recipe links I posted upthread
Also:
prawns / egg / steak / chicken stir-fry with masses of veg
Salmon fillet / steak / ... & big mixed salad with vinegar / lemon / small drizzle olive oil
stews with veg, maybe lentils too
curries with veg

Eat meals, no snacks, on NFDs too

Thanks BCF that's doable.

I think you missed the "sw" in MotherofDragon's post. She's back on 5:2 because she didn't like the food on Slimming World.

I know some people on SW. They all seem to rave about it but the foods that are pushed seem so processed and non nutritious.

I am indeed HLBug. Currently sipping my free coffee!

The doom passed yesterday fortunately. I think it's a combo of Jan, Monday, work and FD altogether that's making me feel doomy.

Tried to make last evening a treat- showered, did nails and epilated legs. Went to bed at 9.

Hi Motherofdragons! I can't get on with SW either- I've tried it a number of times. I just end up eating food that has less nutritional value although I'm full, and all the carbs don't suit me. I puff up like a balloon. I also hate all the stupid alternatives they have- 'make this scotch egg with couscous and these haribos with sugar free jelly' stuff. It's not real food!

Mother - glad your back on 5:2. I hate the fact they push all that artificial junk over real food. It just doesn’t seem to work long term.

Cheshire- I work in inches rather than cm. It’s 2 inches per dress size. They say 10-14lbs per dress size. But I’ve been keeping a tally on 5:2 and for me the inch loss is not consitant with that. Some weeks you loose lbs and no inches and other weeks you loose inches.for example in 11 days I’ve lost 2 inches on my thighs (my largest stubborn area) I’ve actually gained half a lb.

Granny- yes I’m really considering doing the February challenge as I’m going into maintenance next week so I’m thinking it will help keep me on the straight and narrow. Are you thinking about doing it? It’s £14 and you get a medal and decompression shirt on completion.

Morning everyone! Well done to those who did FD yesterday. I’m signing in for my first one for the week today. Have just glugged down a glass of water and am savouring a cup of tea before school run madness.

Re SW i’ve never ever tried their plan, but I have used their online recipes, especially the vegetable based ones and found they can be quite good for fast days.

Today’s plan is a poached egg bagel for lunch and chicken salad for tea. Good Luck fellow FDers.

Oh my goodness there’s two mother of dragons on here

Good luck to all the fasters today. I’m taking a leaf out the the early week fasters book and will try and go for it today.

Morning all.

Cheshire - I work in both inches and cm - take my SV and NSV wherever I can find them! The reason I restarted 5:2 was that whilst my weight had crept up a couple of kilos, I hit 60 last year and my abdomen and waistline responded by deciding to target those areas for fat gain. I was a healthy BMI (albeit high side of healthy) but decidedly unhealthy waist size. My waist loss is currently 2cm per kilo. BUT I have also upped my exercise considerably, so some of the waist loss will be through toning the muscles underneath rather than fat loss.

Quacking - I looked at the challenge but decided anything which made me pay a fee, albeit with the promise of a piece of clothing, was not for me. Instead I set up my own spreadsheet with my own targets on it and run 3 times a week.

So, a strange thing happened on the scales this morning. They were 0.4kg lower than after Thursday's FD although part of it will be through an unplanned mini 900 cal FD yesterday. I seem to be following my previous trend of losing for a couple of weeks, stalling for a few weeks, and then losing again.

Goals for today. No snacking. Gym class. No snacking.

Have a good Tuesday everyone.

Hello all, joining in after lurking for a while! I have been getting into the swing of 5:2 over the last few months, though admittedly doing no way near 2 fasts a week as yet. I have 2 questions:

1. I've got into a fast day rut. I don't like proper cooking on fast days, too tired and hungry to bother with the faff, so for lunch I tend to have a 200cal ready-made soup then 300cal for dinner.
   This tends to be some combo of the same set of ingredients: white fish, prawns, egg, mushrooms, green veg, sometimes tomato.
   E.g. fish and pak choi, mushroom & spinach omelette.
   Trouble is I'm so bored of these! Please tell me your other fab fast day ingredients that I can throw together (not full on recipes) to give a bit of variety.

2. I tend to go a bit mad on the breakfast or whole day after a fast day, verging on a binge. What are your tips for avoiding this?

Some people do lose in fits & starts, granny especially the "hard losers" or those down to the last few lb
Sounds fine.

Welcome, christmas
On FDs, I have a salmon fillet or steak strips with a huge mixed salad, dressed with lemon / vinegar

Hi @Motheroffourdragons I have 3 dragons and a fluffy dragon (cat) 🤣

@BigChocFrenzy it was the SW diet where I was eating crap I don't like. Love real food. Some SW recipes, especially the currys, are good and I definitely have more veg focussed meals. My downfall is bread related foods like bagels but on 5:2 I can still eat them.

Having a FD today so just had a small hummus pot with carrot, peppers and cucumber from the work canteen.

Haven't planned dinner yet so need to give that some thought.

Thanks bigchoc (but not for your user name which is making me hungry!). Love salmon and had assumed it was too calorific for FDs but have managed to fit it into my MFP for today.

motherofdragons - bagels . That is a revelation! Clearly I need to completely rethink FDs

Haha no the bagels are for non FD!

Salmon is a great shout as I have that in the fridge and broccoli 🥦. Now I'm looking forward to dinner!

Poached egg has turned into a fried egg. Still not too shabby for 200 calories

I want a seeded bagel now.

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaageeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllls

f**king love bread. Did very low carb for a couple of years and then decided life was too short to live it without bread.

Hello All do you mind if I join you, I have been on 16:8 thread but I have decided to combine with 2 FDs, its also a little bit quiet on the other thread!

I initially had one goal to lose 2 stone but after my visit to the dentist I now have another, I have always had problems with my teeth/gums despite a scrupulous cleaning regime!!!.....Honest! Anyway the Dentist is proposing an awful lot of work not required right now but feels if not done will be worst later, so I googled fasting and teeth and it appears there may also be benefits so I am going to be a one person experiment and not spend the £'000's that the Dentist would have me spend and instead follow this WOE and see if it has any positive effects! I will keep you all posted!!

What's the Feb challenge? Have I missed something 'up thread'?

Hi new people and ex-lurkers. No wonder I was confused about Motherofdragons saying she was new- it was a different Mother!

NFD and sitting in Pret. Spend far too much time eating dinner here on various stations with work. Very healthy though!

FD tmrw but I am supposed to be gong out for a curry for a friend's birthday. Might have to be a mini one instead. What're the lowest cal dishes?

Peachy it’s that virtual race I was doing. Walk jog or run 25, 50, 100 or 200 Miles in a month. For me I need that encouragement to basically force me to do it otherwise there’s no way I would of off my own back.

FD dinner almost here, starving hungry and so tired today I nearly fell asleep.

We went in so many lovely chocolate shops on our outing today. All giving away free samples. I didn’t touch any of them. DH did buy me two bags of fudge but I’ve put them away and that will be my treat for if I get to my target.