5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

MrsTumble - I know what you mean about it posting, I find it helpful especially on FD.

I have two go to FD meals. First is a omelette obviously no good for you. My other is a type of ploughmans (actually it probably isn’t) i have cheese tomatoes ham pickled onions and pickled gerkins. I love it as it goes a really long way on a plate and I find it really filling.

Me too MrsTumble which is why I'm trying to post daily. Not sure what to suggest food wise for FDs as although I'm not over fond of eggs an omelette is my go to food. I flavour it with almost raw onion and sprinkle in a bit of ham to make it palatable. I do try to go high protein and low carb.

Blossom - it's trying to snow here too - no chance of settling though as the ground is too wet.

Goals for today. No snacking. Yoga this afternoon. No snacking. Drink at least two pots of herb tea instead of coffee.

Have a good Sunday everyone.

Hi MrsTumble, I'm a big fan of tinned tuna for FDs - very protein rich and low in calories.

Weekend is going well - I went a couple of hundred over TDEE yesterday but that was coupled with a 10k trail run which ended up as a crazed muddy scramble. So I think I got away with it as my TDEE is pretty conservative.

I also seem to have lost an inch and a half off my belly! Down from 33in to 31.5 in. In a week. Is that even possible?

Well done everyone on your progress. I'm finding it really inspirational to read the achievements. Identifying with the struggles too!

We were shopping for DS' planned house move nearly all day yesterday so had lunch in mc Donald's and dinner in Ikea. ( I know, I know). I thought I'd done well with a fillet o fish and shaker salad in mc Donalds then pasta and meatballs in Ikea, finishing the day on 1400 calories (no snacks). But no, I got a telling off from MFP for too many carbohydrates!

Still, I slept well

MrsTumble
Somewhere in the mists of a recipe thread you will find Laskas Aubergine and Chickpea curry - a massive plate of it comes in at 400 calories

Can someone please link the recipe thread I can't seem to find it

It's nearly a week since my sickness bug (Tuesday) so I will be fasting tomorrow as Tuesday I have friends over and we will have a feast

DrWhy Gadgets can be inaccurate - probably not the software, but in their measurements of the inputs from your body.

For an NFD estimate, I recommend you use Mosely's TDEE Calc which is also in our OP.
He says to set the activity level in the calc to one level below what you think, as nearly everyone overestimates their intensity / duration.

All calcs, whether from here or from gadgets are just a guide and many folk never calc NFD cals.
The best way is to review every 2-3 weeks and then tweek you intake according to how you feel and your rate of loss.
You normally need this amount of time to give it a chance to work, to smooth over blips.

MrsTumble On a regular fasting WOE, it's best to eat your 500 cals,
to preserve muscle and to support your body with plenty of nutrients.
All the 5:2 studies had at least 500 cals
Dr Varady did human trials with 0 calories, but found that 500 cals gave the best combination of fat loss and muscle preservation.

What I suggest for you:

• Plan your menu in advance
• Save all your calories for 1 meal, a decent supper at say 7:30 pm, based on protein and lots of veg
• As soon as you have eaten, before even clearing away, drink a glass of water and immediately clean your teeth, to reduce the risk of nibbling again.

In your case, I recommend on FDs you cut out all fruit, cereal and wheat, to avoid insulin spikes.
And of course no added sugar and preferably no fizzy drinks, even diet
If soup makes you hungry, just have solid food.

My favourite FD meal:
Grilled / pan-dried salmon fillet with a huge mixed salad, dressed with vinegar and a drizzle of olive oil.

For those who just have one meal on FDs, 18 good healthy 500 cal recipes on BBC Good Food 500 cals look pretty filling.

purple this is the 5:2 FD Recipe Threadd, also in the OP under "Useful MN Threads*"

The OP "How to Start" section has links to other FD recipe resources, eating out, takeaways etc under "Useful Resources & Calculators" including meals for different calorie limits

All the runners here (quacking granny post) are definitely encouraging me! Husband is buying trainers tomos so we're going to do it together (sort of... one after the other so kids aren't abandoned!)

Not a great weekend food wise but feeling motivated to start afresh with a FD tomos. (Must remember the snacking graph also!)

Sympathy re the sleep issues dr why it's so stressful trying to manage all that stuff.

tap I'm same weight as you and also hoping to get to 9.7.. you've done it before so will follow your lead! Re FD food do you like stir fries, with a smidge of steak or tofu or some cashews or something for protein? Or roasted veg with some fish. I guess generally masses of veg with some protein to fill you up?

Just - glad it’s some motivation for you. I’m not good at it, I’m not fast and I really struggle with the distance but in a month it all adds up. Nike Run app is good if you can get it as it calculates all the runs over a month. Tomorrow I will hit 25 Miles the odd mile here and there really does add up.

Thanks BCF I had a look at Moseley’s calculator and it gives me a TDEE of 1798 at at sedentary level, so the 1700 resting calories from the IWatch is in fairly good agreement with that - at least it’s not too high. It’s higher than I remember but probably because I’m 2st heavier I’ll see whether I’ve lost anything next week.

Thanks for the support on the sleep just we decided to start putting him down in his cot because he’s getting so heavy that when I transfer him from my lap he often wakes now anyway but he’s so distressed it’s heartbreaking and it goes against my every instinct, I tend to do fairly gentle parenting (not letting him run riot - honest) and this really goes against that. However at Nursery he happily lies down in his cot and goes to sleep so it is possible and will be better for everyone in the long run. Not only are bedtimes awful though we’d got to frequently sleeping a 5 or 6 hour stretch which was awesome, he’s now up every couple of hours max and totally inconsolable - not sure if it’s the sleep training or a mix of cold and teething and just bad timing. Anyway - totally off thread!!
Back on topic today hasn’t been great as my effort at a walk was foiled by it being just too cold and windy for the toddler so we ended up at softplay which doesn’t really count as exercise!
I have had 3 fairly lavish meals but no snacks so remarkably seem to be just under TDEE if I’ve estimated right - I find it really hard when I’m out because a portion of something like beef casserole shows up on MFP as anywhere between about 350 cals and 600! So I have to just guess in the middle. I have the same problem with the canteen at work.
I hope everyone else has had an enjoyable and successful weekend.

Evening all.

So should come in at around 1000 today so have managed a mini.

Hoping it means the scales will be kind tomorrow morning.

Alcohol is my demon so have started measuring my pours of gin which means I have drastically reduced the size of my drinks and therefore the calories and units I am consuming. Really pleased with this.

Just a random thought - I know someone who doesn't have regular periods. Few and far in between. However every year she fasts for Ramadan (no food or drink during daylight hours) and LO and behold after a couple of weeks her period makes an appearance. So this WOE does help those with hormone / pcos issues! I find it amazing that every single year that's the only period she can predict.

On a separate note, after 5 days at TDEE/ no fasts, my weight has been stable at 9st 6lbs. Look forward to my fast tomorrow. Roll on 8 stones!

purple I’m not sure if there’s any evidence for an effect on fertility but when I left the thread because I’d fallen pregnant there were a couple of others in a space of a few months and it anecdotally seemed to have a positive effect.

Continuing the derailment! sorry everyone not currently in baby mode!

Anyway dr why we were in a similar position 4 months ago. Baby needed to be rocked to sleep but it was becoming increasingly ineffective and he was getting heavy! So we did gradual retreat I think it's called? Sitting patting him in his bed til he falls asleep... then easing off contact, sitting further away etc night by night. First night went in with my glass of wine & put him down. He did kick off! And I needed my wine! But only similarly to what he did when we rocked him & after a few days he went down fine & we didn't leave him to cry alone. He's been pretty good ever since more or less - we still did night feeds on/off too but they've also stopped now. Anyway I'm sure you've got this, but thought a positive sleep training story might help!

Anyway back to 5/2 stuff... er, I'd do the same now but make sure my glass of wine was part of a meal!

Thanks just that’s very similar to what we are doing! There’s just been a lot of screaming, I lie him down and pat him, he stands up and screams.... tonight he was so tired he was half asleep in my lap before I put him down and only made one feeble attempt at getting up before I managed to pat him to sleep, so maybe that’s positive...
I hope we aren’t putting off the folks who might want to have children!
I don’t have wine but I do have a really good cup of tea, must resist biscuits!

Iamblossom
Alcohol is my demon
You and me both. I know that I can be an alcorexic
but after this weekend the Christmas wine rack is empty so I'll be good for a while

Yes tip I could be that too...

Evening all

A wave and a Sunday hello 👋 from me.

Hope you all had a good weekend.

I’m genuinely looking forward to FD tomorrow which is a real break through as I usually dread it. But I’m set up with lots of herbal tea, a nice tea pot for at work and a chick pea curry for supper.

No snacking rule has been broken only once this weekend and I am committing this week to 2l of water a day without fail and no snacking.

Well done on your alcohol NSV, Blossom
For longterm weight management - and your liver - try to make moderation your longterm WOE.
As we age, we can no longer get away with what was ok 10 years ago.

I watched the Dr Mosely documentary a couple of times, when I started on here over a year ago. Didnt he only have a 70cal soup on his fast day? Or have I made that up?

Bad day today, had a friend's birthday and she made burgers, I had two as I was so hungry and there were no healthy choices in site. It was all chocolate and crisps and cakes and pizza. I also had several cubes of cheese and a chocolate cupcake.

But....I didn't have any breakfast or lunch and only drank diet coke whilst they all drank alcohol. And have had nothing but water since being home. So that probably came to 1600 cals and that will be all for today.

Hi all, have struggled with my NFD’s this weekend, have been on nights so snacking and food galore but hopefully will redeem myself.

Starting my Monday fast in ten mins, hoping to behave for the rest of my shift. I find I do a lot better when I’m home

Goodmorning Everyone

Its nice to see everyone is in fair fettle even when having the odd struggle.

I weighed myself again today and Ive lost another 1.6 kilos so thats a total of 6.6 in two weeks. Im really pleased and I think Im actually going to be able to manage losing all of this weight after years of not being able to deal with doing it mentally or emotionally.

My FD are Thursday and Sunday and I found yesterdays difficult due to very real hunger caused by eating 700 less calories than I should have on Saturday. I just couldnt fit them in due to one thing and another.

Does anyone else have little things that make them quietly very pleased? Im currently loving that Im now out of the 120's and down in the 1teens. Ok, I may just be 600 grammes into the 1teens but I'm down a number band and Im happy.

Here's to a good day for everyone.

Morning all! FD today after a good weekend. Staying strong in the face of fresh bread! Good luck to fellow fasters!

Morning all!

I'll be having some smoked trout ( lower cal than smoked salmon) for dinner, with watermelon gazpacho.

Tins of soup are usually a good FD standby, most of them are around 150 Cal's for the whole tin.