5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Just wanted to report back on BCFs stomach excersizes that were posted couple of days ago. Thanks BCF they definitely hit the spot could feel it through the tummy button section.

Seems I've been doing ab work not stomach for a few months. Oops.

Goldfinch - thanks. Yes looking at maintenance very soon. I've been under TDEE for a while now so am upping the calories as off today. I gave up all rice, potatoes and pasta 3 months ago and because of that naturally fall under TDEE. I've personally found getting the balance right very difficult as at the beginning was massively over eating on NFDs due to very large portions. Now it's gone the other way.

I'm a carb hound, the more I eat the more I want. But bought some musli today so will start having that late mornings as DH wants to continue the no carbs for tea as he's found it's stopped him snacking after a meal the same as me.

Sounds good duck
I recommend keeping carb portion total per meal within 80-100g cooked weight (or 1-2 slices bread)

Remember the healthier carb choices:
. boost beans, lentils, peas - excellent for blood sugar
also
.sweet potato (boiled or baked, not mash or deep fried)
.steel cut oats or oat bran
.quinoa
.bulgur wheat
.brown / red rice
.wholegrain bread
.baking with almond flour instead of wheat

If it's been at least 6 months since childbirth and you have no separation, pelvic floor or other issues:
the plank is excellent too

Quacking your results are stellar! I really like steel cut oats for breakfast, they don't bring on the same cravings. Paleo granola is also delicious.

Congrats Mship, on mfp they refer to where you are as onederland!

Had a NFD, just had my dinner (late as I'm on call)- sweet potato and chickpea curry. Fast Day tomorrow (fingers crossed I get sleep tonight). Planning an omelette or breakfast for dinner. Miso soup for lunch.

I had an apple when I got back to my desk BCF - does that count?

Good luck as you move into maintenance mode quacking. Im thinking I might move into that zone in once I get back from holiday and undo any damage done that fortnight!

I'm with you on the carbs front quacking! I've realised my portions were way too big before starting 5:2. Now a generally avoid them on FDs and eat way less on nfds - I try and stick to BCF's good carbs list too!

Sweet potato and chickpea curry is one of my faves Edit!

I'm an omnivore, but I enjoy vegan meals.
My current fav restaurant has the most delic falafel, either with sweet potato side, or tabouleh & salad

Oh yes the plank, I can only do it for about 30 seconds tho. Does that count?

Really strange can't work out what's happening but I ate upto my TDEE yesterday. I did some gym work didn't do HIIT but just put the resistance up on the bike quite a bit more than usual and burnt 200 cals. It's TOTM ATM and I've lost again this morning. 0.4 of a lb again but what's going on that's crazy, I would of assumed I would of gained.

Oh my, those inches lost are amazing Quacking! And your NSV size 8 shorts Goldfinch.

Hope your DD is well on the road to recovery Ouch.

Great significant milestone reached MShip. Being a child of the 50s I work in both imperial and metric measurements. Those 2-12, 14 and 16 times tables we had drilled into us as 7 year olds are still very useful.

FD for me today. One of the neighbours is having trees cut down and the shredder has been on constantly for two hours. Am feeling slightly sick but I think it's the noise and vibration.

OH has just sat down beside me and is eating. Noisily. Grr. May go to my kettle bell class early .... .

Fast day here too. Think I'll try keep as regimented as possible about it- Mondays and Thursdays, miso soup lunch and preplanned dinner.

Went to a spin class at lunchtime and really needed my miso soup salt hit afterwards!

Mmmmmm! Big fan of falafel here BCF! It's one of my faves!

Quacking there is just no stopping you at the moment!! I guess the loss goes in fits and starts. Don't go losing too much though will you!?

Fd here and have eaten a 110cal beetroot salad for lunch and planning a Goan fish curry for tea - but no rice for me. If you haven't already discovered the 'Easy one pot without the calories' recipe book then I can thoroughly recommend it! I've cooked nearly every meal from it and they've all been fab and has clear calorie counts too! www.amazon.co.uk/Easy-One-Pot-Without-Calories/dp/1409154793

Well, I ended up taking the size 8 shorts back as wasn't sure on the colour. The different style I picked instead came up smaller so I'm back to a 10. Slightly disheartened by that but sizing varies so much and it's all about the cut isn't it!?

I love falafel. Fuss pot DD will sometimes eat them too. She is all better thanks to those who asked. She had hurt her mouth and face quite badly in a fall, then started vomiting. She was concussed and then when she tried to eat it hurt so she didn't. For almost 4 days. Not a bite. Nothing to drink either. So she ended up being observed for concussion, examined for facial injuries, and put on a drip because she was dehydrated and her blood sugar levels were through the floor. But then after several days and lots of worry and everyone tearing their hair out and all.out of ideas to encourage her to drink or eat, she nicked some of DH's crisps,remembered she likes eating and that was that. Wee sod. Anyway as we were trying to tempt her to eat we ate lots of shite in her presence, plus it was my birthday when she was in(!) so.there were chocolates and cake a plenty. Surprisingly I only put on a pound but I feel mega flabby. I've done 1 FD this week and one sort of mini FD where I did about 1300 cal (TDEE 1900 +ebf a bug hungry boy) and FD2 is tomorrow. That should sort me out.

Pleasingly I re-ordered a pair of trousers that I tried a couple of months ago and wouldn't go near me then. They fit! Woohoo! So I've easily dropped a dress size but I've got a long way to go.

Sorry that was very me-me-me. Meant to say singing don't be disheartened, what shop did you get the shorts in? I remember being a fairly slim person in my early 20s and needing to go 3 sizes up in trousers in h&m,l and down 2 in tops in the same fitting session, their cut was so crazy an 8-10 is fantastic!

Singing I love a fish curry (and falafel now you mention it BCF!). What's the recipe?

I wouldn't worry about the size, I think sizes are fairly meaningless. Lots of places just upscale the waist without changing the hips/bust measurement much meaning people like me with an hourglass shape never have clothes that fit!!

Ouch poor DD, glad she's better. My DD is tiny (just over 3rd centile for weight) and goes on hunger strike when she's got a hint of a fever, and it's so stressful. She had chicken pox lately and lost 0.5kg (when you start at 11.5kg it's a lot!) so we've been feeding her up too while I try to avoid the lovely food!

Hello everyone. I cannot believe how well y'all are doing, including the amount of excercise done on fast days. Wow. I've just reached my cal limit on my first ever fast day. Believe diets don't work, so really having to convince myself this is (so sorry useless at the acronyms) LSC?! Change in approach to living IYKWIM. (LSC was life style change btw.) So to believe in this and carry on and hopefully be successful is feeling tricky! I'm not overweight, I hope!, but have definitely been eating more and also drinking WAY more. So already the fast days will help with that, right? (I have so much difficulty including drink in calorie counts (in my head), despite knowing full-well alcohol is loaded with them!) What also concerns me and my ability to do this is the idea of deprivation- as soon as I think I'm depriving myself I want 'it'...a lot. So adjusting this train of thought and realising I'm not being starved, for goodness sake, I hope I'll make it through to tomorrow!! I want to lose the extra pounds I've put on in the last 6-12 months maybe, and fit ALL the clothes in my wardrobe, without worry. I cannot give my stats as I've not weighed myself for a couple of years. And I'm now a lot scared to. But what does anyone think on just going by clothes fit? I'm concerned that this, and that I'm not overweight to begin with, will mean I don't lose anything. Or at least very slowly. Hence the need for it to be very much lifestyle not the dreaded D! Otherwise I think I may well cave. In my 20s and 30s I had the willpower. Now at 47 with two children (6 and 7) I struggle to find it. Another question before I finish - so much harder to shift pounds at this age I'm sure, right?

Pleased dd is on the mend ouch! That all sounds very stressful but good to hear you're through it now!!

Edit - it's a brilliant low cal fish curry recipe. I think I've attached a pic of it - just hope it works!

Welcome Melody and well done on your first fd!! This definitely is a way of life not a diet! I wasn't 'overweight' when I started and had a healthy BMI but just felt flabby, heavy and unhealthy. I started 5:2 in early May and have lost 1.5 stone in that time and feel so much healthier. It was hard to start with but now I usually find FDs a breeze. It's totally changed my way of thinking about food and my appetite has reduced. I don't want to eat bad foods as much as I did (still have the odd bag of crisps/cake etc but nothing like I used to). I don't think it overly matters if you don't weigh yourself as you will know when you've lost weight but it I have to say that as someone who's never really weighed myself I've actually found it quite motivating to monitor the loss and have a definite record of it.

Wow SGoldfinch. That's amazing weight loss. What was your bmi at start? And now? I used to be a daily weigher, and it could ruin my day. So I'm not sure it would actually be a good idea. But while the fit of clothes is more tenuous and possibly slower to show, it would be more in keeping with 'way of life' attitude. I feel similar to how you did at start, and congratulate you on such success. Did you cut cals on NFDs? I guess I'm hoping I'll eat less junk also. Another thing is how much hungrier I think I get when exercising. Does no one else find this? Amazed at amount of exercise some people are doing whilst still managing to fast.

Welcome melody - I wasn't sure if weighing everyday was going to send me loopy before restarting this in March. But I do, you do see the daily fluctuations but I find it helps me keep on track. You will be up and down over the course of a week but will see a downward trend.
May I recommend you take your measurements ASAP. I highly regret not taking mine at the beginning and only 2 months in.

Goldfinch - were the shorts you replaced them for darker by any chance? I've found same style denim crops I had in dark navy in black identical but had to go up a size. Apparently it's to do with the dying process black dye makes the clothes smaller.

Actually it wasn't a one off for years I've had the same style blue and black jeans / crops and the darker ones are always up by a size.

Good FD here, huge tuna salad for tea.

Well done on your trousers NSV, ouch You're on your way !

Welcome, Melody and well done on your 1st FD

If you aren't keen on weighing, I suggest just monitoring every 4 weeks, under the same conditions: naked in the morning after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.
Also measure waist & hips.
I recommend you take your baseline weight & measurements tomorrow morning.

It is important for longterm health to get alcohol consumption under control, aiming for nhs limits
So, that's whether you follow 5:2, or any other weight loss method or none at all.

However, alcohol contains a lot of calories, which are preferentially stored as fat around the waist, like sugar is.
Alcohol stops fat-burning dead for however many hours it takes for the liver to process the toxins - your body prioritises this - so exceeding nhs limits can slow weight loss even if you are still achieving a calorie deficit.

Diets don't work if afterwards you go right back to your old WOE
We call this a WOL: change eating & drinking habits to reach your goal waist & weight, then retaking these good habits to maintain longterm.

As we age, TDEE drops, so we tend to gain weight unless we exercise more or reduce intake.
Weight particularly piles on in the pre / meno / post years, unless action is taken - even those of us who never had to watch weight before, find we have to change habits at this time of life

The 2 FDs, as well as providing a big calorie deficit, should also give your body a rest from alcohol and junk food.
The other 5 days you can relax and eat "normally" but not stuffing yourself - you can see how you progress like this for a couple of weeks. Most folk lose well like that.

However, some people have got used to a "normal" eating - and drinking - that is well above TDEE at their current age & activity level.
They need to use the NFDs - which are basically maintenance days - to train themselves how to eat what their body needs.

Thanks Melody - my BMI was about 23 when I started and is now 20. Doesn't feel like a huge drop but I guess it's in right direction! I started off strictly using mfp and kept very strictly to 500cals on FDs and started off counting calories on nfds too, sticking to TDEE but over past month it so I've got more confident about what I'm eating and haven't been counting at all not even on FDs.

As far as exercise goes I couldn't do much at all on FDs to start with. I just felt too exhausted. After a few weeks I started doing a bit and now I can exercise just as hard on a fd as I do on a nfd. I don't do loads though as find it hard to fit it in but do a Jillian Michaels 30 day shred workout at home 4-7 times a week. It's probably pretty feeble compared to what others do but it works for me and I was starting from a base of no exercise at all apart from walking a lot.

Funnily enough quacking the shorts I had in an 8 were light denim and the ones I swapped them for in a 10 were darker! I also tried on 2 pairs of trousers - one linen and one chino and the size 8 chinos were a loose fit and the linen ones were snug. This was all in the same shop too - fat face! Sizing is definitely very random and doesn't do much for our morale!!

Oh, and Melody - on the weighing, I weigh in weekly - first thing in the morning after second fd. I did go over a month without weighing at all and do think that help establish this as a WOE rather than a diet. It's about finding what works for you though.

FD complete. Had a good kettle bell class and then a gentle 4 hour workout clearing out (part of) the garage. Ended the day on just under 500 cals but feeling peckish now which is unusual for me. Kitchen still staying closed though.

Welcome Melody - definitely measure if you don't want to weigh regularly - but like BigChoc suggested you should probably do an initial weigh-in asap if only to determine calorie consumption. Being short, I got quite a shock when I first calculated my TDEE and saw that if I wanted to continue with a sedentary life then 1250 calories was all my body needed and not the 2000 "average".

Goldfinch - if you do JM 30DS 4-7 times a week then feeble is not an adjective I'd use. I've never progressed beyond the third day of level 2. You've made me feel I probably should persevere with it but I do find the repetition quite boring.

Tired now - time for sleep methinks. Night all.

Goldfinch the 30 day shred is hard! Thanks for the recipe, will definitely give it a go. Hello Melody, I've just completed my 4th fast so quite new to it all too. I've found it easier than I though so far. Granny well done on a very active fast day!

I'm 1.5lbs down, so that's 3lbs in 2 weeks. Expecting it to slow down now though.

Well done on your SV, Edit

Granny gave a good reminder why everyone should initially do TDEE Calc as a reality check
(excerisers should set activity level to one lower than you think, as Mosely advises - most people overestimate)

You need to eat (and drink) appropriate amounts for your body, not someone else's
Note: Many women who are short / middle-aged have a TDEE literally half, or even less, that of their male OH.