5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

goldfinch Shred is a very good level of exercise

How is everyone doing?

NFD here. I've had overnight oats with chia seeds and half a banana for breakfast; a lunchtime circuit class without the ab moves (extra cardio/upper body light weights substituted- I know I need to take it easy with a DR but I feel regular exercise is very needed nonetheless, I find it hard to wind-down if I don't have a few decent sessions each week). Followed by a cauliflower curry pot from POD for lunch (delicious, 315 cals). Having sriracha and (just a little) honey chicken traybake with peppers, red onion and sweet potato for dinner. Out for lunch tomorrow, in the centre of London with my DH and DD. Will probably be Pizza Express or someplace similar so I think I'll skip breakfast and hopefully not go too far off track. Tomorrow is a rest day for me exercise wise.

Sunday dinner not decided yet, does anyone have suggestions to inspire me? Planning to fast Monday.

Sounds a good plan, Edit

As a fish addict, my suggestion for Sunday is baked salmon, mediterranean veg & sweet potato, with a broccoli side.
Dessert: Greek yoghurt, berries, cinammon & baked flaked almonds

No SV for me this week as I've stayed the same, but I did manage to fit into some of my size 14 jeans so all is not lost. Both fast days were tough this week; there was even an office birthday on Thursday complete with 4 (!!) cakes.

No fasting now until Monday but I'm going to put in extra effort on my NFDs this week.

Well done on your size 14 NSV, Fire
That's lost bodyfat, which will eventually show up on the scales

Thanks BCF, was having a tough time staying motivated but the thread really helps

Fire I definitely consider fitting into smaller clothes a victory.

I've had a mixed day. No breakfast as outing planned. Lunch at pizza express-chose superfoods salad with anchovies (540cals). Did some baking with my 3year old and did eat some buttercream. But not massive amounts so hopefully not too much damage. Have last nights leftovers for later (small amount). No formal exercise, and a less than average 12k steps.

How's everyone's weekends going?

Mixed day here too - ended up being an unintentional mini fast day due to the onset of a D&V bug early this morning Starting to feel better now, so hopefully tomorrow will be ok.

I hope you are feeling better today, bug

Bug hope you are feeling better. Ended up having BBQ today as weather so good- I made some burgers with lean steak mince (with red onion and mozzarella) and had some salads alongside. I'll definitely hit my TDEE by end of the day which I'm a bit anxious about but trying to trust the process!

Went to gym and got nice and sweaty for 45 mins, and went to the park with my 3 year old for a while. Step count fairly unimpressive at 14k but then it seldom is great at weekends. Generally hit 20k ish mon-Friday.

Morning all and good luck to the Monday fasters

That was a very active Sunday, Edit with a delic menu

Hope you are feeling better Bug.

Feeling stressed but mean for wishing OH hadn't retired. Hopefully get out for a run later on - maybe some endorphins will kick in!

Monday FD today - who's joining me??

Hope you're well today, Bug.

Still bumping along at just over or under 14st4, been two weeks now. It's time to bring the FD calories down a notch to 600 and get back on track with MFP'ing the NFDs as I've got a little lax in that regard, and I think I may be one of those people who needs longer term MFP before I can be safe without it. I can definitely do the lower cal FDs, have done a couple of 600's already.

Feeling rather unwell today myself. I attempted a reintroduction of wheat this morning in the form of a small piece of wholemeal toast. Was in the loo half an hour later with IBS. So I guess wheat is permanently off the menu. I'm sad, I was really hoping it would be ok.

But I'll go for a swim at lunch and that will cheer me up.

Oh dear bad luck on the wheat front. Horrible.
Ok so I did weigh myself as recommended (and measured also), and it was post a fd and a day with less than tdee, and I was pleasantly surprised. The weekend was normal and started mfp Sunday and was below tdee but above the restricted cals it gave for weight loss, and I stupidly weighed this morning. Now have a fast day and wondering what's happened. Thought I was doing so well. So have a fd, feeling hungry and disgruntled. Silly as I never normally have breakfast. But think I've been restricting already since starting this. Hence confused as to why weight gone up. Ahhh! So. Any tips?
Good luck all today, myself included!

Well done everyone on the SV and the NSV.

Can I ask a question about maintenance please to check I'm doing this right.
Is it as simple as eat upto TDEE and 1 FD per week?

I don't want this to come across as me me me but I'm totally baffled by this:

I have been eating upto TDEE since getting to target last week. I have been using MFP for everything and weighing all my food.
I had 1 FD this week. I had a treat Friday but factored that into TDEE. But I'm still loosing weight. I'm not complaining as I set what I thought was a sensible target that had leeway either way.

But can't work out how it's still coming off. I had a stall for 3 weeks then overnight got to my target, pretty sure I had a whoosh effect. It's my TOTM and I know I would normally weigh heavier so I'm really confused why it's still coming off.

It's not immediate cause for concern as I do still have some fat on me around the tummy, love handles at the back and my legs.

Getting the balance right is bloody tricky tho.

Well done?!
Well apart from hoping that'll be me (sorry v selfish!), maybe now you're paying attention to what you're eating and sticking to a tdee, does it highlight you were greatly in excess of that previously? I'm thinking (am I remembering correctly?), that you weren't overweight as such before starting this? Not sure what this says...I always thought the less to lose the slower the progress - maybe I'm wrong?

duck Once at target weight, I recommend initially moving to one FD for at least 2 weeks, to check the goal weight is reasonably stable.

This is part of a tuning & assessment process, to develop the maintenance program that works for your individual body & lifestyle.
Some people naturally eat well above TDEE and they may choose to keep one or both FDs permanently (excluding vacations) so that they can eat more on the other days, or if they have weekly social events.

Also, for those who have lost a lot of weight, have had years of overweight and maybe yoyo dieting,
their real TDEE is usually lower than the theoretical TDEE, due to adaptive thermogenesis that occurs after large weight loss on any diet / exercise program.
Losses above 50lb may reduce real TDEE by up to 15% - a major reason why regain is so common for really big losers.
This effect may take 1-5 years to tail off.

However, other folk - like you - find 5:2 has adjusted their normal eating / appetite to be within TDEE.
This is often the case with those who formerly ate v large portions of carbs, especially sweet / junky ones.
Probably you can maintain later with only occasional FDs, say to get rid of vacation gain.

I suggest you try a couple of weeks without mfp but eating reasonably healthy food to appetite on 6 NFDs per week.
Include beans, lentils, healthy starchy carbs - which I suspect you may still be frightened of, but are fine for most folk in sensible amounts.
Only consider calories when it comes to "treats" - preferably keep the weekly amount within 10% or 20% of total calls

If you continue to lose after those 2 weeks, while eating what you want on NFDs, then you can cut out the FDs totally.
Longterm, just keep weighing weekly, as a check that the old WOE doesn't creep back.

melody TDEE is the rough aim on NFDs, but exercisers should calculate at one activity level lower then you think (Mosely says this is more realistic)
Remember not to add any exercise calories to your 500 cal FDs (600 for chaps)

If you know that you worry about scale blips, then I strongly recommend you don't weigh more than weekly, the morning after the 2nd FD.
Ideally weigh every 2 or 4 weeks, under identical conditions - same scales, hard floor not carpet, same time & place on floor, naked etc.

Weight naturally varies a couple of lb during the week - regardless of whether you are "dieting" or not - due to many temporary factors:
undigested food, speed of digestion, water retention (often due to increased carb intake at WEs), hormonal swings etc

This can easily disguise a weekly loss of 1lb.

Some women have wide fluctuations in water retention / release, due to hormones, so their weight can vary more than average.
Most women retain a few lb water during totm and release it afterwards.

On 5:2, the weight loss curve is usually zig-zag due to the effect of the stomach nearly emptying on FDs and then refilling on NFDs
However, the trend over 2-3 weeks should be downwards.

Fast day here. I've been spinning, and have 11k steps on the Fitbit so far. Sedentary afternoon planned though!

Just had my usual miso soup lunch- I find I really need that salty hit especially after exercise (and you couldn't pay me to eat marmite). I'm like melody and feel antsy eating to TDEE at weekends/NFDs but am trying to trust the process! I've calculated it as sedentary though as I'm not quite sure what my activity level is. Generally on my feet a lot of the day, average around 12-15k steps on a no exercise day, and do probably 4 30-45 minute sessions in gym a week, and have added in 15-20 mins Pilates at night now to try help my diastesis.

Prawn stir fry tonight with loads of chilli and veg.

echo I'd say you were exercising moderately - a spin class is pretty heavy duty, no? What does anyone else think? Thank you for words BCF. Was feeling eager this morning but think less weighing def a better idea for me to avoid feeling disheartened.
I've calculated my exercise as light. Ran 3k this morning because out with children but STARVING! Have exercised every day since starting this and I'd call that moderate, but doing as suggested and going with light. Might go and have some marmite!! Please tell me this gets easier. OH wants to know when I'm going to stop saying 'hungry' when he asks me how I am! Silly thing is, before starting this I might have not eaten by now and I'd be so much less fixated. How to think of this as WOL?

It's pretty heavy duty but for only 30mins.

Melody I'm hungry today too, which is funny as the other fast days I wasn't especially. As you said it's probably partly in our heads. Also echo BCF with day to day weight changes- mine will go up and down by 1-1.5kg on a day to day basis. But overall trend is down so far, hoping it continues!

Hi there, I've been relurking here for a few weeks since restarting 5:2. Was on the board last year and lost 17lbs but then I went and put 10 of that back on . Not good since I've got another 5 stone to lose. However I set myself a target this year of giving jogging a proper try, my DDad is an ardent runner and keeps on at me to try it. I've had lots of ligament niggles and a couple of twisted ankles (not jogging related), all more than likely down to my weight, but persevering with it and have signed up for a 10K in a couple of weeks which I plan on jog/walking. Anyway my reason for delurking(!) - I just wanted to thank BigChoc for the link to the electrolyte tablets they are really helping my training. Every jog/walk I do is like climbing my own personal Everest and I've found them invaluable, thank you .

On a fasting note, FD for me this week are Tues and Thurs, I usually do Mon and Tues B2B and have lost 5lbs in the past 5 weeks so happy with my loss so far

away back to the lurking shadows

Congratulations on your progress jing. Very impressed with your commitment to the 10k. Fantastic.
And I think I've worked out the reason for everyone doing so much exercise on FDs. Anything to keep busy and your mind off food!
Is it true the FDs get easier?

Melody - I think you may be thinking of another poster. My BMI was 26.6 to start with.
When I restarted 5:2 back in March I wasn't using MFP and was guesstimating and can now see I was well over my TDEE. But recently have been under daily.
I am struggling to get it right if I'm honest.

In terms of TDEE calculation I've put mine at the lowest activity level as my week really varies and depends if I work out and if I do work out what I do. I tend to only burn 200-250 cals.

How long have you been doing this for melody? It does get easier, it definitely does. Big shock to the system at first but keep drinking throughout the day.

Jing - wow a 10k that's amazing.

BCF - yes I am definitely a yoyo dieter have been for 10 years now and I'm scared of regaining it all.
I have reintroduced carbs this week but as I've bought a lot of new foods I've never calorie counted before and some never even tried I'm going to continue with MFP for a bit as I have no idea about calories in these new products as i eat a lot of the same meals usually.

melody I recommend newbies do not try to eat below TDEE on NFDs - these are "maintenance" days, because the weight loss comes from the FDs.

It's Ok not to eat if you don't feel hungry.
However, it is not good to deliberatelly eat below TDEE if you still feel hungry. Otherwise, you may be hungry all the time, which is not sustainable.

My advice to newbies:

• try 5:2 for the first 2 weeks without mfp on NFDs
  The idea of 5:2 is to only have 2 days per week when you are "dieting" or watching what you eat
  Fasting is enough of a change to get used to, at the start of this WOL.

• Continue without mfp, unless you don't lose during these 2 weeks, or later on if you sts for at least 2 weeks
  Lack of progress then is usually a sign you need to train yourself to eat within TDEE
  However, most people on 5:2 never need to mfp the NFDs

• Do not boost exercise until you have got used to fasting - wait say at least 3 weeks
  If you try to change everything at once, it can be too difficult.
  So, take it one step at a time.
  
  Don't rush. It's a WOL, not a race