5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

BCF can I ask your opinion / advice on three things please?

1. Squash / Cordial (Sugar Free) to help increase water intake.
2. Sweeteners in tea / coffee (rather than sugar)
3. Berocca (or similar) tablets

Thanks

bug In moderation, sweeteners are useful for many folk. However, it is very individual
I recommend cultivating a taste for water and gradually work towards 2l daily drinks, where at least 1.5 l is unflavoured water

• Some people react to sweeteners as they do to sugar - with an insulin spike. This increases hunger overall and also tends to increase fat storage.
  If sweet drinks don't set off cravings for more sweet drink / food , then this is not a problem atm for you.

• Except for stevia, sweeteners alter the gut flora, which can increase the tendency to gain fat
  Dosage and how many months or years this takes is probably very individual
  There is a lot of low carb chocolate with stevia now - a good choice for a treat.

Your questions:

1. With sweeteners is better than not drinking enough, but try alternating 1 glass water with 1 sweetened glass
   Pure water in a pretty glass, with ice & a slice
   Keep your sweetened water in more boring glasses

2. Sweeteners probably less harmful than sugar for most folk, with best choice of sweetener being stevia - also recommended by Mosely.
   Stevia goes especially well with herbal teas, e.g. I love it with mint / ginger & lemon / aniseed & fenchel
   Try training yourself to gradually reduce the amount of sweetener.
   Also, Roibos tea (healthy) is naturally fairly sweet, so needs less added.

3. I hadn't heard of Berocca, but looking it up, it has excess B2 and hence often causes deep yellow urine
   I'd advise against it. Too extreme.
   If you want a tablet for water, then choose one where the recommended doseage doesn't exceed 100% RDA of anything
   e.g. the High 5 Zero Citrus sports electrolyte I posted which has a good rep among athletes who are more active than either of us.
   And don't exceed the recommended dose of whatever you buy.

Just been catching up on the last two weeks posts and what a load of losers you lot are!

Pleased to be able to report I finished off July with a nice run in the park this evening and a successful FD. Feels good to be back.

Thanks for the advice BCF.

I plucked up the courage to weigh myself this morning and have put on a pound. Not too bad, could have been worse!

Thanks for the tummy excersizes BCF. Will try them today. Instead of counting reps I put on a song and just carry on doing that until the songs finished. Then I would usually go back and do it again.

In terms of what you've said I think I'm pretty good.

Drink alcohol maybe once a month at the very most.

Sugary treat I have 1 per week.

Wonder - well done for getting on the scales.

Welcome back, granny but hopefully not goodbye to independence
Your OH is entitled to retire, but not to be a grumpy grinch towards you. He should keep himself occupied and out from underfoot.

You'll soon ditch that lb, woo now you are back on track

Hi all - struggling to keep up with the thread at the moment but still with you all in spirit! Hope all is going well for everyone.

SV here - just been to buy a pair of shorts and ended up getting a size 8!!! I can't remember the last time I bought size 8 clothes.

Well done on your size 8 NSV, Goldfinch That shows how far you've come

Well done Goldfinch that's absolutely amazing. I couldn't believe my luck when I hit a 8 on the bottom as that's where I'm naturally bigger. I had to go and buy a few more trousers / jeans just to double check the tags were correct.

NFD here and I've saved a few calories tonight as my dinner was so utterly discusting I had to throw it out.

I was doing turkey peppers and onion in Mexican herbs and thought I'd throw in a packet of pilau cauliflower rice as I'd never tried it before. It was absolutely horrific and I won't be buying that again.

Has anyone tried the plain pre packed cauli rice? If so it is ok?
I don't fancy spending another £2 if it's as bad as what I had tonight.

Goldfinch congratulations!!!

Quacking I don't think pilau would go well with Mexican so maybe that's part of the problem? I've tried packet cauliflower rice once only and it wasn't great. Prefer to make myself and flavour as I like. At the moment I'm all about cauliflower mash or this delicious caulicannon (although it also wouldn't go with Mexican!).

NFD here. Started day with gym- just exercise bike and elliptical. Gently. 20k steps just from work and commuting. Didn't eat til lunchtime, so technically a 16:8 day! I had this curry for dinner. Followed by some fruit. Another NFD tomorrow.

I'm personally not a fan of pre-packed cauli-rice quacking - in fact I find it pretty nasty. I keep meaning to have a go at making my own as think that would be a lot nicer but haven't quite got round to it!

I'm still in shock about the size 8 shorts! Think I might have to do what you did quacking and go and buy a few more pairs of jeans/trousers just to be sure!! I was a snug 10/comfy 12 when I started this and wasn't even an 8 way back when I was at university!!

Hey everyone, another one struggling to keep up with the thread! Well done on the SVs and NSVs! FD for me after a weekend away. Alcohol really messing with my progress!

Good luck, Tuesday fasters

Many people have this problem, Sarah Alcohol can totally block loss in some cases.
Training yourself to keep to nhs limits can make a big difference longterm to weight management, as well as health.

It's not just the calories, which add up, maybe with accompanying nibbles too:
alcohol stops fatburning until the liver has processed the toxins - which takes several hours or even a day, depending on the amount consumed.

Also alcohol calories, like sugar, are preferentially stored as fat around the midsection

One hidden benefit of 5:2 is that the weekly FDs already give you the 2 recommended alcohol free days, so you are already doing something positive for yourself.

Thanks for the ab separation info, BCF! I only have a pinkie size gap, so I can do the exercises.

MShip I'm jealous of your little gap! Mine is just less than 3 fingers! Have appointment coming up with a specialist physio who I'm hoping works miracles!

Another NFD here. Period has arrived so hoping that will show a little drop on scales by the weekend.

After being stuck at the same weight for 3 weeks and it finally shifting again this week but very very slowly.

I have very unexpectedly this morning only gone under my target weight.

I can't quite comprehend it but my stats are in.

March 23rd 10st 10.4
Top size 10 bottom size 14 hourglass shape but carry weight on bum tum and thighs.
BMI: 26.3

This morning
Top size 8 bottom size 8/10 depending on clothes shop.
BMI: 20.8

I only started taking measurements 2months into 5:2.

Bust: 35 - now 32
Under Bust: 29.5 Now 25
Tummy: 35.5 Now 28
Thighs: 41 Now 32
Bum: 39.5 Now 32.5

I'm absolutely amazed not by the weightloss but the amount of inches. I was always told it was about 1 dress size per 10-14lbs. And looking at my stats it's come off exactly where I wanted and what every other diet I've tried over the last 10 years has failed to do was get it off my lower half.

Absolutely amazed and it's all thanks to this board. I could of never done this by myself without the wonderful advice and support.

Congratulations quacking!

Edit it's luck of the draw, I guess, I didn't even know about abdominal muscle separation until after my 2nd pregnancy. One of the mums in a local support group had a 3 finger+ gap and she's got it down to 2 now with physio, so it certainly can be addressed. I carry my excess weight on my middle anyway, there will likely never be a flat stomach for me, but I'm ok with that.

I forgot to say earlier, I had a very big SV this week. My first weigh in at under 200lb (I'm not British originally, stones are alien to me!); 14st 3.9 = 199.9lb, and seeing that 1 on the scale was magical.

Congrats on your NSV and SV goal milestone, duck
Some folk do lose suddenly with a "whoosh" after a few weeks of sts, especially when already lowish BMI as you were.

As I posted on the last thread, this is probably because the fat was burned earlier,
but those fat cells filled up immediately with water, possibly the body trying to resist going below a certain weight,
then finally releasing water after a few weeks of persistence, because your body has consolidated the fat loss and rebalanced to allow the weight drop.

Don't worry if you osciallate a bit at goal - this is water variation.
I recommend that we only regard a goal as fully achieved after it has been maintained within acceptable limits (set by the individual) for at least 3 weeks

Edit - yeah I think your right about the Indian / Mexican mix I don't know what I was thinking as it wasn't a good combination. It tasted very artificial.

BCF - I totally agree with the 3 weeks, ive never stayed at my target for longer than a day so this is the tough bit now.
Ive been tracking my weight daily so fully expect gains and losses. But I've still got my 2 FDs this week so am hoping for good things.

As off today I will be slightly upping my calories to hit TDEE but continuing my 2 FDs. My BMI is fine, I'm not underweight if I loose a few more lbs then great.

In a good mindset tho, been shopping and picked up a small treat for Friday. My DH pointed out the individual piece of cake was 10p dearer than a slab but it's things like that that has got me into this situation.

Congratulations quacking and very well done!!

Hello, I had dropped off, we had a horrendous week last week with DD ending up in hospital for 3 days, fasting out the window. Back on track this week. Some amazing success stories here :)

Crikey, ouch what a shock for you
Now your DD is safely home and you can get your breath back

Good decision about cake portions, duck
You are absolutely right: the larger the amount of treats / indulgences we buy, the more we eat.

Buying treats in bulk, bulks your bod !

Huge well done quacking - such great results! You must be feeling amazing! Are you planning on going onto maintenance sometime soon?

Sorry to hear about your daughter ouch! Hope she's on the mend now! I can totally understand why your fasting went out the window in the midst of all that stress!

NFd here - went to lunch with a colleague and had a tuna and cheese melt. Not the best choice but it's wet and miserable and I'll make up for it on fd tomorrow!

Nothing wrong with a tuna & cheese melt, but you'd get 5:2 bonus points if you had also grabbed say some carrot sticks and an apple