5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm stocking up on low cal m&s salads rn

Well done on your SV, Fire

Living on my own makes it much easier to have FDs when I want, with the exact meals I want and I never have to buy "snacks" that might tempt me off track.
Even though I have totally flexible working hours during the week, I find FDs tougher then, because I see colleagues going out to eat.

However I appreciate most 5:2ers have to mesh with family, work, commute etc
So, it's certainly not that I have more willpower ! Just real freedom of action.

It was my usual Saturday FD system:
I slept in, started the day with a 20 minute jog, did several errands, then cycled to the gym for afternoon spin class.

I saved all my calls for my usual early FD supper, this time from a local Mediterranean fish restaurant:
panfried slamon fillet with skin, Mediterranean veg, side salad with lemon, 1 toasted pita bread.
After years of fasting, I don't need to count cals.

So, that was my usual system - nearly 20 hours on zero cals, but with 2l water - and I now feel comfortably full.
I won't be tempted to eat again today, because I know I just won't be hungry again.

I love hearing about you FDs BCF. Your dinner sounds so yummy.

I went out last night and had a BIG carb loaded meal and dessert. Woke up with a banging headache and thought my god I am so hungover. I never drank a drop last night I was on unlimited soft drink refills and throughout the day must of drank atleast 3L.

I really do believe these headaches are sugar / carb related as I was the same last week after I ate half of a very big box of chocolates.

I snuck in a 3rd FD today as damage limitation wasn't planned but I've felt pretty rough today. Drank 2L of water and had a 475 calorie tea and feel better now.

Many "soft drinks" can cause headaches; I recommend keeping a limit of one portion per day - and mainlining water instead.

Almost all fizzy drinks contain sodium benzoate, which is not good for you, even if you chose sugar free.
Artificial sweeteners are reported to cause headaches in some folk, especially when consumed in large amounts. However, imo, it may be the sodium benzoate instead. Unproven.
However, fizz has been proven to leach calcium from the bones, which women especially don't want to happen.

If you had juice: that's very high sugar - more fruit in a glass than you would typically eat and usually juice has less fiber to reduce the insulin impact.
Sugar spikes and the crash afterwards can cause headaches,

I suggest you aim for 1.7 l water plus optionally a 0.3 l soft drink, plus unsugared tea, coffee etc
Try to have 2 days per week without any fruit juice or fizz.

Glad to hear you feel better, duck, after what sounds a good FD with lots of water.

Quacking sympathies with the headache.

BCF your fast days sound really good, I'm in awe of all your exercise.

I wasn't hungry this morning so skipped breakfast. Went to gym for a "legs bums and tums" class followed by a short interval treadmill session. Went really badly, as usual couldn't do anything which required the use of my lower abs (really getting me down, despite lots and lots of work over the past 6-7 months I still have an incredibly weak core) then felt a snap in a tendon near ankle which has been really hurting all day. I'm fairly sure it's just a tendonitis so hopefully will improve soon.

So plan is to get new trainers this week. And am debating whether to get a few physio sessions as am sure that my frequent injuries are probably due to my terribly weak core. I'd like to have a second child next year but feel I need to be lighter and stronger first (had a hard first pregnancy and a very complicated c-section, hence the ruined core).

Sorry to hear about your injuries edit and definitely contact a physio asap.
Time for professional 1-1 help - a PT isn't suitable for this, although your gym staff might be able to recommend a good local physio if you ask.

Probably the physio will give you some exercises to do, to strengthen your lower core and some to help your tendons and joints.

I recommend you give up any gym classes until you get professional advice - classes that are too tough for your fitness level would typically cause injuries in weak areas, as may DIY gym work.

Thanks BCF. I'm quite aerobically fit, resting heart rate low 50s. My weight gain is due to a love of food as opposed to a dislike of exercise!

Before having DD I ran daily and really miss running which is why I've been trying to build back up to it ever since (always liked long slow runs, with some HIIT sessions for fitness). Just since then I've been struggling with frequent minor injuries which I realise may be as my lower body is overcompensating for weak core. I'll probably stick to some work on elliptical/bike for the next few weeks to keep fit and will see about a few sessions with a specialist physio.

Had a cauliflower and turkey rasher hash as a late brunch, and will enjoy a chicken roast today. FD tomorrow- leftover chicken can be stir fried for a good evening meal.

I had more salmon today - I must have been feline in a previous incarnation

That's good about your heart rate, edit
However, sounds like some of your tendons, muscles, joints etc may have been weakened.

A weak lower core can have knockon effects for your entire lower body.

You were a good runner before, but frequent injuries and continued weakness suggest you need professional help p, before you can start to regain your former capability.

So, I recommend a sports physio and sticking to walking, gentle cycling (seated) and maybe swimming until they have assessed you, to avoid worsening injuries.
To avoid overloading any weak areas, I suggest keeping exercise to max 45 minutes, with no speed sessions or HIIT. Also 1-2 recovery days weekly without any exercise

btw, are you able to do seated exercise, with light dumbbells ?
Or with XCO - these are weighted tubes filled with granulate, for a different kind of loading. They are very cardio, more movement than weight

Soooo glad it's a NFD today!! Had a brilliant time at our local Mela festival sampling far too many international cuisines from all around the world yum, yum, yum...!!!

Hi again all. Thank you for the advice about migraines and headaches. I will take it on board. I don't drink fizzy drinks or juice. I do eat the marmite thing if needed on FD. But it might be connected to eating junk or not enough protein. According to MFP my protein intake is too low. I do struggle to get it higher. I am vegetarian which of course rules out meat and fish. I do wonder about electrolytes too. Again according to MFP my sodium intake is very low. Not sure how much to trust MFP though.

I have had a horrible week with a flare of my chronic illness. I did do fast days but struggled and ate way over TDEE on NFD. Back to it this week. Very disappointed with myself.

lights enjoy your holiday food! edit that sounds frustrating for you. Physio does sound like a good idea.

Need some advice from the 5:2 experts!

I'm planning on a FD today, but after driving back last night I skipped dinner as neither of us were hungry. We had a pub lunch (roast beef ciabatta with chips) at about 3 and then half a Mango each at about 9pm.

Should I still try to fast today? I'm worried I'll find it really hard as I am going into it on a very few calories from the previous day....

missludgatecircus I'm in same boat today- had roast dinner at around 430 yesterday. Nothing since. Woke up feeling a bit peckish which is unusual! I'm powering through, having miso soup at lunchtime and may have a second mug of it if I get really hungry. Hoping it will pass though. No exercise today, ankle still aching a bit.

Miss I would give the FD a go. Drink lots. I personally think these things can be mind over matter and not as hard as we think IYKWIM.

It's not been a bad couple of days. I threw in a accidental 3rd FD on Saturday to do some damage limitation from my big meal Friday night. I don't usually bother with a 3rd FD as I've tried it a couple of times over the course of the year and it did nothing for weight loss. But this time it worked and got back to Fridays weight.

Had a great NFD yesterday and did some gym work and another 0.4 of a lb off today.

No inch loss this week but super happy with SV however small as I've been bouncing around weight wise for 3 weeks now and it's finally on the move.

I forgot to ask my question.....

I've been doing some core work But I don't know if I'm hitting the spot I'm having issues with.

I have a puffy tummy just either side of my belly button. It's not all the way along just a couple of inches either side.

What excersize would hit that point of the tummy?

MissLudgate, Edit I recommend going for the FD today.
If need be, turn it into a miniFd (sub-1000 cals) but keep to FD rules - reasonably nutritious food, no sugar, no junk, no alcohol,

woo If you are still low on sodium, even with Marmite, then add plenty of soy sauce to stir fries

How vegans / vegetarians can boost protein:

• beans, lentils, peas, chick peas, hummus

• lupin is high in protein and is very popular with vegan athletes

• soya, tofu e.g. in stir fries or stews

• chia seeds are especially high in protein - no more than 1 tbsp to start with and take lots of water with it.

• flaxmeal, all kinds of seeds, nuts

• vegetarians can of course have cheese and natural yoghurt (Greek is especially creamy & yum)
  and there are even special hi-protein low cal yoghurts in some supermarkets, by the other natural yoghurts

Well, I don't know. I disappear for a couple of weeks wallowing in self pity and a whole new thread appears. I'm still wallowing, but have no choice now but to accept the inevitable. OH is taking early retirement. Short notice (don't ask). As from tomorrow I will have my every move and decision open to scrutiny, question, and raised eyebrows. I know i'm being selfish, but I'm dreading it. The weekends were bad enough. The inevitable "do you have anything specific you need to get done today?" question just as I'm about to slurp the first coffee of the day. I've already had "is there anything specific you need to get done next week?" question.

So, today i'm getting a FD in before I say good by July, goodbye independence.

On a brighter note and despite totally ignoring FDs and TDEEs for the past fortnight (and indulging in every food which no one wants to see in print on a FD) the damage is only 0.8kg up - I did end up 16:8 on most of those days, so I guess that helped. Or maybe it's the stress ....

Will check in later to catch up on posts. Have a feeling I'll need to keep reminding myself I'm on a FD.

Hello Granny I've just started last week and am fasting today also.

I'm assuming there's a backstory but hopefully the retirement goes better than you expect. 0.8kg up is really good if not watching, within the possibility of daily fluctuation.

I've just had my miso soup and feel satisfied. Busy afternoon at work planned which should keep me occupied. No formal exercise but have 10k steps on my Fitbit so far; should reach 15k by the time I get home.

woo do you eat eggs? think you said vegetarian, not vegan. They're a great way to boost protein and salt at the same time if you like a dash on top. Also an excellent source of iron, so important for women.

I'd be interested in suggestions for quacking's tummy too. Mine is beginning to emerge from the wreckage, and I wonder if I might still have somewhat separated muscles after two babies.

General (NOT post-natal) belly fat

Unfortunately, there is no method of spot-reduction of fat.
Where the last stubborn bits of fat remain is dependent on genetics and hormones

Resistance training builds / strengthens muscle, which can help tighten up an area, reducing flab.
See the abs exercises in the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

However, reducing fat around your middle is usually 90% dependent on your diet
So, check your weekly calorie deficit and also cut back on the 2 things that tend to store fat around your middle:

• Alcohol - keep within NHS limits (daily & weekly)
• Cut back on sugary "treats" and also other high carb junk, e.g. pizza, crisps, deepfried food. To burn belly fat, I recommend no more than 10% of your total calories on these combined.

I'll post some post-natal abs exercises, but first ....

Abs - postnatal
Before working on your abs, first check amount of separation:
(Ignore twee mumsy title page ! )

1.	Lie on your back with your knees bent, feet soles on the floor.
2.	Place one hand behind your head and the other hand on your abdomen, with your fingertips across your middle —parallel with your waistline—at the level of your navel
3.	With your abdominal wall relaxed, gently press your fingertips into your abdomen.
4.	Roll your upper body off the floor into a "crunch," making sure that your ribcage moves closer to your pelvis.
5.	Move your fingertips back and forth across your midline, feeling for the right and left sides of your rectus abdominis muscle. Test for separation at, above, and below your belly button, measuring by fingers width.

If you have more than a three-finger separation between your abs, seek advice from your HCP

Postnatal Abs - Rebuilding Core

Only if you have less than 3-finger separation !
STOP exercise immediately if it hurts, or feels wrong.

Avoid crunches for at least 6 months after birth, or - if this longer - until any separation or pelvic floor issues have been resolved.

Do these on 3 non-consecutive days per week, moving on when ready from stage 1, to 2, to 3

Stage 1) Heel Slides (picture 1)
. Start at say 3 each side
. Build up over the weeks to 20 each side, then move onto

Stage 2) Single Toe Taps (picture 2)
Important: keep your lower back still all the time.
. Lie on the floor with knees bent, feet on the floor
. Keep one leg still and slowly lower the other foot down to the floor (keeping knee bent) and back up again
. Start at 3 each leg
. Build up to 10 each, then move on to

Stage 3) Single Leg Extension (picture 3)
Important: keep your lower back still all the time.
. Lie on the floor with knees bent, feet on the floor
. Keep one leg still and slowly extend the opposite leg out straight, parallel with the floor but about 2" above it.
. Return the leg to the starting position.
. Start at 5 each leg
. Build up to 20 each

Thanks BCF; I've got just less than 3 fingers separation. Hasn't really changed since DD was born. Will try some of these exercises. Have booked a specialist physio in 2 weeks (not available til then I'm afraid).

Fast day went well. Had a big chicken stir fry with soy/sriracha and loads of veg. Stuffed now and kitchen closed at 450cals.