5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

My Friday FD was a good one, came in at just shy of 800. Had a big SV to celebrate on Sunday morning, 14st 0.8 and officially 25lb down from when I started 5:2 just over 3 months ago. I feel great.

It's pouring down here in Scotland today, so lovely DH dropped me at the pool and I was early enough I had time for a proper 2.5km swim before work. I usually only have time for 1 or 1.5km, and it felt fantastic to really stretch out into it. I've still got that warm exercise buzz almost 3 hours later.

melody I had a bit of the feast/famine thing initially, but I've generally stuck to MFP on NFDs because I have comfort eating issues. It's helped a lot. For me, I'm still just on the obese side of the line according to BMI, my sedentary TDEE is just over 1800 and I'm actually pretty active, so 700-800 calorie FDs are still working for me. I did have a stall for a couple of weeks, and I tried dropping the FD calories, but that did not feel good. Like BCF says, it's a trade-off. I'm willing to lose more slowly and not have the FDs be painful. I think it's more important for this to be a WOE I can sustain long term than for me to lose quickly.

MShip that's an incredible weight loss in 3 months, well done!

My Monday FD has turned into a NFD . Looks like Tues and Thurs FDs this week

Brilliant and hope you still feel great Mship.
Bad luck jing, but as you say - plenty more days left in the week.
I agree that if it works somehow and is also wol that's better.
Not really feeling the reasons today but still doing it. Hope I'll feel moretomorrow.

Melody I don't find fast days terrible, but do feel hungrier the NFDs which is why I'm still counting cals those days. Mship well done on your loss! Jing these things happen. Monday is an ok day to make a mistake on- you have a whole week to make up for it!

As for me, I'm actually doing ok in the west of Ireland. Arrived at lunchtime and my lovely husband told his mother we'd had a big breakfast in airport and skipped lunch too to help me out. I've managed to go to local gym and had a 30min treadmill run (seem far less injury prone on treadmills) followed by some resistance work. Wandering around shops now (DD is spending some time with grandparents). MIL is making lasagna which is a serious departure from her usual meals but it's from a "kit" so a) won't be very tasty and b) has a calorie count! So will have a small portion and big green salad and come in at around 600 which is reasonable.

Will try fit in one more

Exactly 2lbs to lose and my BMI will be in overweight and not obese

Edit you're doing brilliantly for on holiday. Well done on the willpower!

Ollivander Big congratulations!! I'm 6lb away from that myself, and it's going to feel amazing. I like switching between metric/imperial/bmi and getting lots of scale milestones that way.

So near that motivating BMI milestone, Mship, Ollivander
We'll all cheer as each of you in turn nails it

You're doing really well on vacation, Edit W Ireland sounds gorgeous.

No problem, Jing This WOL is very flexible, so let it fit your life, not the other way round.
I often move my FDs according to my social calendar, or if a delic meal pops up suddenly before me, or even if I'm not in the right mood.

melody As I said - also from observing people on the last 35 threads or so - the 800 cal FDs usually work well for those with high TDEE and / or quite a bit to lose.
They also work for those doing 5:2 BSD, i.e. 5:2 + daily low carb.

If your TDEE is lowish and / or you haven't much to lose, I'd expect loss to slow.

Calorie decision wrt intake is dominant for most folk, so consider the maths:

• Woman low TDEE say 1500 has (assuming 5 maintenance NFDs):
  weekly deficit of 2000 cals with 500 FDs
  but only 1400 deficit with 800 FDs
  probably a bit under ½ lb loss

• Man low/ medium TDEE say 2500 has
  weekly deficit of 3800 cals with 600 FDs (original FD for men)
  and still 3400 deficit with 800 FDs
  probably a bit over 1lb loss
  (In practice, a bloke's different hormones & body composition would probably boost this)

• Woman high TDEE say 2300 ( Jing !) has
  weekly deficit of 3600 cals with 500 FDs
  and still 3000 deficit with 800 FDs
  probably 1lb loss (which is about 5:2 longterm average for women on 500 FDs)

Fingers crossed I'll have managed my first proper August FD today. Struggling to stay motivated at the moment - start off with good intentions but then it all goes pear shaped once I start eating. Surprised my weight hasn't shot up, but when I got on the scales this morning I was up barely half a kilo. Still, better to get rid of it now before it turns into a full kilo.

Ollivander and MShip - you are both so so close! Keep up the good work. Enjoy your holiday Edit.

Jing - i know just how you feel. Some days are just like that - I've had my fair share of them this month.

Melody - I'm generally okay the day after a FD - it's the second day that I find I'm feeling most hungry. I've been trying to follow 16:8 for those days to exercise some control.

So pleased today is nearly over. Time to eat my dinner and then put some shelves up in my workroom. Should keep me out of the kitchen.

You've almost nailed it, Granny Have an early night, to pamper yourself and make life easier.

sts without FDs means you are naturally eating within TDEE. So that's good.
If 16:8 is tough, many women do better on 14:10.

Well managed my first 5:2 fast day today now that i am back at work. Was relatively easy as i was busy. I did feel quite hungry after my dinner so had a few strawberries and blueberries and it seemed to quell my yearning for more food surprisingly. Think i was craving some sugar but i was strong today. The staff room was full of cakes and sweet pastries and i had not one and tbh, didnt really care about them. Cutting down on the sugar has really helped me not want sugary things. [well i did a bit tonight but it passed after the fruit!] Tomorrow is a normal feed day [ without sugar] I am looking forward to getting up for breakfast.

Was about 500 calories today :)

Ollivander you've done fantastically, will be great to reach that point. Well done never on your first fast, and granny on a good day.

BCF is there any good evidence you know of looking at how effective 14:10 is? I had a small portion of lasagna, a big plate of salad and some aubergine slices. Around 600cals and hungry now due to lack of protein. Glad it's coming to an end!

Edit Far less formal research on IF with restricted eating windows than on fast days.

However, bodybuilders and trainers, who usually avoid FDs (they want to maximize bulk) have a lot of anecdotal evidence that it improves body composition, i.e. %muscle : bodyfat,
but on its own may not reduce total weight

Weight loss is dominated by calorie deficit.
A reduced eating window like 14:10 or 16:10 can help achieve a sufficient weekly deficit to enable loss.
If you eat the same amount of calories, but within a shorter space of time, then this technique is unlikely to significantly help lose weight.
It probably will improve body composition though, if you do heavy lifting

So success of eating windows depend on the individual's intake and exercise type.

re 16:8 vs 14:10
Whichever works better for you and is sustainable longterm - why not mix it up.

Well known fitness trainers, like Martin Berkhan who invented 16:8, have reported that women who are already lean / exercising strenuously / under other stress - i.e. already near their stress limit -
may do better with 14:10, because it is less likely to raise their cortisol levels.

If anyone feels particularly hungry on an NFD, or tends to binge after an FD
then rather than restricting the eating window,
you could try simply having 3 - 4 reasonably nutritious low GI meals, medium sized

If you are on 5:2, but fairly new to fasting, then 16:8 or 14:10 on NFDs may be too tough for your individual bod. So try 12:12 instead.

The main thing is no snacks even "heathy" ones
Snacks keep insulin raised, hinder fat burning and increase overall hunger and calories in a day.

Boost fibre, beans, lentils and obviously masses of veg
Eat enough protein too
Cut out fruit juice, dried fruit, sugary breakfast cereals, sugary / carby "treats"
No more than 2 daily portions of fruit
Keep alcohol to within NHs limits (it's high calorie, not filling)

Well done on your FD, never

Thanks for the info bigchoc. I've not been well and haven't been on this thread, but I will take a closer look at your suggestions - really appreciate your help.

I'm doing 14:10 because my stress levels (work) are insane and I have health issues. But I'm counting my calories too, hover around 1200 but then don't count milk in tea and veg so probably more towards 1400 total as it leaves some wiggle room

FD for me today. Had a few big carb meals over the weekend so I'm looking forward to resetting. DD is getting her next set of injections this afternoon though...which in the past has meant me stress/comfort eating a large bar of Dairy Milk to get me through (!) but hopefully I'll be able to resist today!!

Good luck to any other Tuesday Fasters!

Weighed at the hospital, shit loss
Was 103kg in April, now 97.4kg on their scales

Welcome back and orry to hear you've been unwell, Emily
I hope all is well now

Let's assess recent progress, Ollivander

When did you start 5:2 and did you weigh & mesure yourself then ?

I think it's swayed a bit because I put on weight after that 103kg weigh because of surgery if that makes sense? So going off my scales which I weigh every day on, I was 16st10, and I'm now 15st1
16:8/14:10 I've probably only been doing for 2 weeks but calorie counting before that

I suggest weighing yourself on your own scales now, under same conditions, clothes etc, so you can have new baseline and can monitor progress every 2 weeks say at home.

So, you've lost 1 stone 9lb by various methods. That's good progress

I suggest that if you prefer 14:10 16:8, you continue for say 2 weeks, then weigh, measure and review

You may find you are losing like that,
or you may need to add 2 FDs to lose, but I'd suggest that you start at 1000 cals for those. You've a fair bit to lose, so at this stage that should be enough.

My normal days are around 1200-1400 cals anyway so not far off! Yeah I'm weighing daily on my own scales every morning to input into an app

I'm reluctant to drop to 1000 and do a fast day as I have a history of disordered eating so not sure how it would work. I find the 14:10 makes me calmer about food and stops cravings

Ah, in that case definitely do NOT do FDs.

Daily 1200-1400 is very low for your weight and probable TDEE.
I would expect that to lose weight very quickly.
Can you do a TDEE Calc - if your rate of loss seems rather fast, you could choose to increase to say 1600 daily, for sustainability.