5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

quacking maybe your slight gain is just water retention from your legs still recovering from your run? Don't get disheartened, if you keep doing what your doing it'll be off again in no time . And is your new sports bra a shock absorber one? Ive got one and all the reviews said they were tight and lots had to go up a back size. I'm between 2 sizes and got the larger one and was glad I did.

Iwish 2.5lbs is great! And good on you for getting some exercise in at the weekend. I'm going to do a longer jog/walk today too.

Anyone any ideas about healthyish takeaway ideas? DP is desperate for one and I've said we could tonight but the more I think about eating one the less I want one!

Jing Suggestions for healthier takeaways

Pret:
soups, salads & wraps rather than sandwiches. V healthy = e.g. crayfish & avocado. Salted popcorn, fruit salad
Avoid: sweet popcorn, flapjacks etc

Fish & chips
Go for thick cut chips and add mushy peas

Italian:
Fish, meat, pasta with tomato-based sauce
Avoid: pizza, garlic bread, creamy sauces in pasta dishes

Indian:
Tandoori (i.e. without sauce), raita, dhal (lentils), boiled rice
Avoid creamy sauces e.g. masala, poppadoms, pakoras

Thai:
Stir-fry, steamed fish or meat, boiled rice
Avoid: curries (loaded with high cal coconut cream)

Chinese:
Stir-fry, Szechuan prawns, steamed veg, boiled rice
Avoid: egg-fried rice, sweet & sour, prawn crackers, anything battered or "crispy" (= deepfried)

Turkish / Kebabs:
Shish kebab, salad, pita bread
Avoid: doner kebab

Greek:
Grilled lamb, fish, mediterranean veg, veg / tomato rice, pita bread

FD today and seriously not feeling it. Need a bit of a kick up the bum.

I'm having an FD today as well, ouch
Think how pleased you will feel with yourself tomorrow, knowing you've nailed an FD, given your bod a break from heavy meals and avoided eating back your FD deficit

Just do your 1000 cals as you are still EBF; don't try to come down today
Maybe when your lot goes to solids, you could reduce the calls on the weekday FD and leave Saturday as 1000.

lo

The day of the week makes little difference at the moment, I'm at home with the DC every day and DH works shifts, plus with a small baby I don't have the sort of weekend social life I used to

Anyway I've given myself a wobble and my meal plan for the day is tracked at 841 calories, which gives a bit of leeway if needs be. Thanks bcf :)

Oh good luck with your FD, though I'm guessing by now you're a bit of a pro at this? And you're right, I'll feel great tomorrow.

15st 2! I have a hospital appointment on Tuesday so I will know my loss in 12 weeks then weirdly excited

Good luck for tomorrow, Ollivander

How are you doing, ouch ?

Main FD meal at 12:15 in an excellent hypermarket cafeteria I often visit < usually cba to cook >:

• a bowl of mince beef
• a big plate of veg - young carrots, mixed peppers, broccoli, cauliflower, leeks, onion

Timing was to allow lunch to settle before training:
3pm pump at the gym, followed by 4pm spin
With a 2hr afternoon FD training session, I eat beforehand on Saturdays - I found my performance & energy levels are much better.

I've just had a small yoghurt with loganberries and closed the kitchen

I had closed the kitchen at 980 calories but reopened it and had one small (30 cal) cracker with a thin sliver of cheese. I am RAVENOUS despite eating veg and good proteins all day, and I am having obscene fantasies about bowls of mashed potato. That and the spot the size of everest on my chin leads me to think I may be due on.

Your day is amazing! I'm shattered after dragging the DC out for fresh air and exercise all afternoon. They are both overtired and I need to put them to bed.

Well have given myself the day off today [kind of] Me and my dh had the weekend to ourselves. Not been kid free in 10 years! So we went out for a walk then had a coffee and a cake and off for dinner tonight. It will be some wine later on so the 16:8 will not be possible today. Resuming tomorrow then a proper 5:2 fast on Monday. I still feel guilty but trying not to.

never Absolutely nothing to feel guilty about - enjoy your freedom

ouch totm is notorious for the munchies and also water retention, but if you can resist them and stay on plan, you'll see the benefit afterwards.
So glad all that's years behind me !

You've got a lot of work & responsibilities too, much tougher than my fancy-free life, happily on my tod and noone to disturb me at night - your disturbed sleep probably increases hunger, too.
So you are doing really well.

I started the day with a 15 min leisurely wake up jog to the PO & back, just to get the circulation moving and loosen up joints & muscles

• I may be the world's slowest jogger - 5'3" with short legs and no desire for speed

bcf for a while there after my injury my then 2 year old could run faster than me, so you would beat me hands down even if I do have 5 inches on you

I have only gone a tiny bit over today and am pleased. I was very sorely tempted.

Good for you, ouch Have an early night if you can

bcf I'm incredibly slow running too. But enjoy it so don't care about times hugely!

I'm just home after night/day out. Ate too much, drank too much. Challenge now is to not let tomorrow continue in the same vent!

Well done Ouch, there are some days where you could eat a horse and the rider on top but you managed it tremendously.

Edit good luck with your day today! Start the day off with a couple of pints of water and you'll get yourself on the right track for eating today.

BigChoc I'm 6ft with a 36" inner leg and I still bet you can go faster than me! Did 4.75 miles yday and it was so hard but with the advantage that I wasn't hungry for lunch. Had a lamb tikka, no sauce, no rice for tea with a couple of bits of fish pakora and some naan. I was hungry by then and I enjoyed it, figured the no lunch and exercise would've made it in my TDEE (it's 2300 anyway so huge). IKEA furniture building today and the pictures later, can easily not snack there anymore.

Have a good Sunday everyone!

Morning and good luck, Monday fasters

That's a very useful TDEE, Jing Gives you a real boost in weight loss

Hi all and well done on everyone's efforts. My weekend a write-off due to a celebration followed by hangover (i.e. ill & random overeating). Trying to ignore it and carry on with today! Not sure whether it'll be a 500, or 16:8 or 36hour fast. Decided I might mix things up. And after the weekend, if I can manage it, a complete day off can only be good and advisable. I've also read about the newer 5:2, with 800 cals. Think I might throw that one into the mix too! I did it last Thursday with the 14hr fast at the start, then actually ended with under 500 as I could manage it. Then did 16 hours from that, to make the Friday 16:8 (preparations for weekend!!). Was so hungry by lunch though that ate way quicker than I normally would. And Friday night bit of a snack disaster zone. But I'm trying to believe I will get better with time and not just get disheartened when I trip. The long game! Kind of amazed at your exercise regime on a fd BCF. Blimey!
I hope everyone's FDs go well today. Fingers crossed!

Ended day yesterday on 1800, slightly over TDEE but happy enough given hangover. Travelling today, been up since 5. Going to try 16:8 for the week so will aim not to have anything until 2pm. Good luck everyone for week ahead.

Those with a high TDEE, e.g. Jing can lose well on 800 cal FDs, providing their NFDs are generally reasonable.
Men can almost always lose on 800, due to very different hormonal balance and ratio %muscle:bodyfat

However, women with TDEE of under 2000 - especially those short & fairly sedentary on 1500 TDEE - may find loss much slower, maybe just 1-2lb per month even if they've a fair bit to lose.

That's absolutely fine if you are happy with the tradeoff

melody whenever an FD or NFD doesn't go to plan, it's just 1-2 days, or even meals.
Just note what led to this and move on

Yes absolutely. Moving on. So BCF you reckon the new 5:2 of a fast of 14 hours and 800 cals being almost as effective is just not true? Also does everyone think it took them a while to level out (not eat over) on nfd? Whether there was an adjustment period and then one chills out and feels less 'feast/famine' - albeit mentally only? (The feast/famine being a mental hurdle not really a physical one I mean.)