5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Done the TDEE
BMR is 1742, TDEE 2091
I don't lose at 1700, I stuck at that for months

Ok, that's a lower TDEE than I expected.
Your daily figures in fact sound reasonable for a really hard loser.

Dr Michelle Harvie, whose IF research was sponsored by various cancer charities, said that the women who had the toughest time to lose - obese, with insulin metabolism issues - needed about a 850 daily deficit with conventional diets, but many lost with a lower weekly deficit on her version of 5:2
IF does usually help, and you are doing a daily form.

So, good luck, you should lose on your current regime
Daily weighing is fine if you prefer it, but try only to take seriously the weight every 1 or 2 weeks, to avoid getting distracted by blips.

If you want / need to shake it up later, you could try changing just 2 days, but keeping the same weekly deficit, e.g. increase one day to 1700 and reduce the next day to 1000.

Ollivander I've lost weight calorie counting before switching to IF and I echo what BCF says about having variable calorie goals each day and thinking about the weekly deficit. You must be quite tall to be moving out of obese range at your weight?

I've ended up having breakfast today, woke hungry (unsurprisingly after so little protein yesterday) so had a good breakfast of scrambled eggs. Just had some veg soup for lunch and chicken with veg for dinner. Have declined endless offers of biscuits and dessert so far. No formal exercise but lots of walking. DH and I heading away tomorrow sans DD so I'll give myself permission to eat whatever I want for dinner but will eat lightly all day and go to gym.

Thanks yeah I'm 5ft 10 and look like this at the minute so I'm quite deceiving!
Definitely prefer daily weighing, I just stick it in the app and it works out weekly loss for me, rather than me weighing on a heavy day and having a meltdown

After 6 weeks of skiving I'm back on the wagon!

Had good days yesterday and today where I didn't eat until 1pm and had two nutritious meals, no snacking. I didn't calorie count, but I definitely ate waaaaaay less calories than I have lately. I might try a full on FD tomorrow, I'll see how I feel.

Have been catching up on the thread and I'm so impressed by your successes! So many of you are very nearly at important milestones. Well done!

DH is home tomorrow after being away for 3 weeks. It has been challenging keeping my head afloat with the 3 DC on my own over the summer holidays, but we've survived! Looking forward to cooking meals where at least one person is appreciative of my efforts!

You really don't look overweight there, Ollivander
and height is a definite advantage for losing, once you get in the swing

Oho, I wondered where you were, Maz
Remember to plan your meal(s) before your 1st FD back, so it's less of a shock

Morning to everybody!
A wheel came off my wagon Mon night, hit with D&V and spent yesterday recuperating. Deffo sub 1000 yday, but no FDs for the rest of the week - just going to keep up my mindful eating. I've got my 10k on Sunday so am really hoping to be back on top by then.

Good luck to all Wednesday fasters

Oh no, sorry to hear that you were ill jings! Good luck with getting ready for your race.

FD today, started off nicely with dropping DD at nursery on the bike, then a short swim before work. Always gets me in the right frame of mind to have a little exercise to start the day.

Sorry to hear you've been poorly jings.

FD dinner tonight will be sauted chicken with onions, asparagus and green beans, BC. Kids are having pasta and DH will have a bit of both. We're going away for a few days tomorrow, so best to get the first FD done today!

Been lurking on this for a while now but thought I would post. Very aware of fasting and started this a few years ago not long after the original documentary came out. Lost weight, ended up plateauing and then gave up as couldn't stuck to it with kids home. Lack of discipline on my part. DH carried on lost loads of weight and has maintained ever since. Tried to get back on and have been successful then again stopped due to a difficult few years on the personal front. Have restarted again a few weeks ago as I can see weight creeping up with hormonal changes and generally just want to get my act together in terms of health.

Feeling good at the moment as am determined to stick to it this time. Supportive DH. I want to kickstart my fitness in general. Have lost 4.1 kg already and I think started about 7 weeks ago. Although I didn't fast for about 2.5 weeks in that as was away abroad for a big family holiday and events and I did put some of that weight back on.

Always a tricky time with kids home on holidays and lots of events on that are playing with my fasting routine. Ideally I would like to do 4:3 as I find with 5:2 I plateau. Today was a fast day after a successful one on Monday but I had to
Meet DM for lunch today and am currently at just under 700 calories. Struggling as I usually fast all day then eat one
Meal in evening. Difficult now to not eat for rest of day. What do I do? I could fast instead tomorrow but possibility of visitors. And Friday too we have a celebration dinner out. So do I do 2 half fast days (today and Friday) or just do the one tomorrow?

Sorry for the essay. Just to say that I find this thread very inspirational. I am actually reading back the threads from the beginning for more motivation.

Well done all and slinky.
Slinky, could you get into bed? Early night? It's problematic when you've others to look after. But just stopping the day and hiding...? If more experienced fasters have words of wisdom on this I'd be interested as hiding is not really realistic, practical or a sensible wol. Although having said that, an early night could probably do us all good, and isn't it true that enough sleep helps with being an appropriate weight?

And 700 is not exactly not a fast day? So well done

Thank you melody that is very encouraging. I am staying strong - despite the lovely scones and clotted cream and jam that the kids have had. Maybe I will keep mine till tomorrow.

Scones will easily last to tomorrow. Save 'em!

Making a salad for work tomorrow, lots of low cal nice stuff - chicken breast, salad leaves, Tesco red slaw, gherkins, red onion, cherry tomatoes and cucumber
Just need to decide what hours to eat tomorrow - I can never stick to the same window as I work a mixture of shifts

slinky you're doing brilliantly. I count 700 as an excellent FD - I'm heading for about 750 here today.

I recalculated my TDEE today, and was surprised. I thought it was about 1800, but I used the link BCF gave and it comes up with 1926. (38, 5'7", 14st1, sedentary). So I guess my weekly calorie deficit is a bit lower than I thought, since I probably am actually moderately active by that calculator, which would put my TDEE at 2455. I swim 1-2km 3-4 times/week and cycle 2 miles each way to work 5 days/week. Plus wrangling toddler and 5yo ...

I have 5st to lose

I'm not great with limited eating - I get shaky/panicky when I am hungry at times - but DH is doing 5:2 and I want to try it

I also don't eat meat.

Advice?

I used to get shaky etc but I honestly find fasting for me makes me calmer. I do 16:8/14:10 so I know when I'm eating and when I'm not which helps me too

Jing So sorry to hear you have D&V.

Do NOT fast for at least one full week after all symptoms have gone - your gut needs this extra time to fully recuperate after a stomach bug.
Some folk have found that fasting too soon after a bug can restart symptoms.

The medical advice in Germany for D&V:

• Eat nothing except 1 slice of plain dry toast (no seeds, butter or other topping) 3-4 times per day
• only drink water, no fizz
• In particular avoid irritants like tea, coffee, fruit, juice
• and don't eat bran or any fiber supplement.

Welcome, slinky and well done on your SV
This week, since you have nailed one FD, I suggest you fit in 2 x miniFDs,
i.e. within 1000 cals and same rules as FDs: no alcohol, no sugary treats, no junk

Mship Mosely advises calculating TDEE with one exercise level lower than you think
(the calculator I posted, also in the OP, is from his 5:2 and BSD sites)

Melody "Hiding" is not normally practical.
When social events etc arrive unexpectedly on an FD, I'd suggest converting it into a healthy NFD (ni junk) within TDEE (guessing, no need to mfp in public)
Then move the FD to the next available day
If that's not possible, then just accept that week has only one FD and rally try to keep the NFDs moderate

You're doing very well to cope with shifts and fasting, Ollivander

Slinky Congrats to MrSlinky on his SV and maintaining

Big - I find the late shifts easy, and have my eating period as 1pm - 11pm usually
Day shifts like tomorrow are harder, I want breakfast and tea but I can't fit both in
I'll be eating breakfast at 7am so will stop eating at 5pm

Welcome, Bunch
No problem that you don't eat meat - we have successful vegan 5:2ers and maintainers

• Boost beans, lentils, peas for protein - they are good for blood sugar control, which you probably need.
• Have full fat natural yoghurt - for similar reasons
• If you eat fish or eggs, these are super healthy protein.
• Cheese - 30g portion / small matchbox size
• Nuts (unflavoured, but salt is ok) 30g portion - measure out in advance because nuts are very moreish !

If you get shaky with restricted eating, you may have unstable insulin control, so i suggest:

• Start FDs at 1000 cals and bring down over say 2 weeks to 800 cals Mosely says on his BSD that 800 cals allows 3 small meals, which help stabilize blood sugar for those with such issues.
• Also try to reduce the GI of your meals, both on NFDs and FDs

NFDs

• cut down on sugar and sugary treats, i.e. cake, biscuits, sweets, choc etc
• and other junky carbs like pizza, crisps, chips
• watch portion size of starchy carbs like potatoes, rice and pasta - keep starches total within 100g cooked weight per meal

FDs
(Rules for everyone:)

• No alcohol
• No sugary treats or junky food
• Boost protein, have masses of veg. plus optionally a small portion (golfball size) of starchy carbs

Most folk adapt to fasting within 2-3 weeks

Ollivander 7am breakfast plus 4:30 pm tea - that would work
Mosely originally had breakfast & supper for his FD meals, because he wanted to eat with his family. That gives 2 fasting periods: overnight and between the 2 meals. So, similar to your plan

Big - sadly I will still be at work and won't have a break my last break is about 2.30pm and only a 10 min one