5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Olive I'm so sorry to hear that. Those poor boys, and poor you.

Good stuff at getting into the lido fellow eagle :) I've been outdoor swimming like mad this summer, it's so lovely in the open air and the sun.

Have finally found some flaxseed oil (called linseed oil here, but definitely cooking grade!) and I believe it's supposed to be very good for health? does anyone have experience of it?

Prawns are just perfect aren't they confused. Tasty and really good cal wise and proteinwise.

FD food eaten now, glugging water here too MrD!

Great you went in pool eagle - Enjoy the beach!

Have had flax oil daily here for years seaeagle. Lots of health benefits and tastes good.

how do you use it, just in place of olive oil?

Important wrt flax oil NEVER cook with it - or it oxidises, which is v unhealthy.
Just have it cold, on salads, in shakes.

Family All you ever wanted to know about 5:2 - how to do it, what to eat, links to recipes & calculators, scientific background - are in the OP

I'm another fan of prawns & shrimps - perfect for FDs.
On NFDs, I love salmon & cod < fish junkie >

I eat a lot of flaxmeal, especially my 1-minute microwave cinammon or walnut & berry muffins (you can cook with flaxmeal, just not with flaxoil)
Flaxmeal is also useful in shakes or as a hot cereal

Bigchoc sorry I meant to say thank you before for the heart rate info. When I was ill at 8m, my resting HR was 150 - a v clear indicator that something was wrong. I love data and charts (not necessarily medical) -BF it was really interesting seeing the HR average drop right down after the birth.

As for fish junkie, I saw a photo on line this eve that you may find amusing... https://instagram.com/p/BH5AyWjjGGJ/

Thanks BCF glad I asked now

Morning everyone, and well done all the other Monday fasters.

DD has vomited twice since 3.30am so she'll be missing the last day at nursery school. I have emetophobia and I've been very lucky - she's 3y5m and this is only the second sickness bug she's ever had. But I'm pretty nervous just now, bowl and disinfectant at the ready, just water and dry toast for her this morning.

I'll give the gym a miss today so this week will be a light exercise week out of necessity ..unless I can nip there later on.

Good luck Tuesday fasters...

Can I ask a question to everyone who weighs themselves regularly particularly before and after a weigh day?

Everytime you fast do you usually loose after a fast day even a little?

I ended up doing a fast day in the end as all the water consumed yesterday made me not very hungry so didn't end up having my meal til quite late.

Stayed the same today after the fast. Tad dissapointed but I'm in early days and I'm not sure how this works with me yet.

Was desperate to get out to do some running and toning today but got sports day instead.

Fast day not weigh day

stripey IME there's no rhyme or reason to it. TOTM can affect things as can what I eat on fast days and when, e.g. if I have a "big", veg heavy meal I will often find I'm no lighter the next day. Ditto if I guzzle fluids on a FD.

It all balances out in the end though, and I usually find I've lost after my second FD.

Hi all,
I haven't posted in a couple of weeks, as I'm doing 16:8 I'm not checking in for fast days etc. I am reading everything though.
My exercise so far has been walking - trying to walk enough to burn 2,000 calories a day minimum (2,100 ideally) using Fitbit as my guide. I was thinking about adding in some HIIT training though to push myself a bit more. One website I read said that one of the benefits of HIIT training is that it increases insulin like growth factor, which increases BMR. From finally watching the Michael Moseley Horizon documentary last week though, one of the benefits of IF is that it decreases insulin like growth factor 1. So... How does IF work with HIIT? Am I missing something obvious?

Stripey Most folk lose after FDs and regain some of that after the NFDs.
So, if you plot daily weight, it is like a zig-zag but with a downward trend over weeks.

However, the small loss from an FD can easily be disguised by normal weight fluctuations that everyone (women especially) caused by undigested food, hormonal swings causing water retention etc

So, it is ok to weigh daily, but I'd suggest that the weight you take seriously is the morning after the 2nd FD of the week - this should show a downward trend, but will still have blips of sts or even slight regain at totm or an indulgent weekend.

btw, If you ate very late, then that meal won't have been digested by morning and you'll have that weight, plus the water retained by your digestive system.
Also, it may slow down over-night fat-burning if you go to bed soon after eating 500 cals - I suggest leaving 2-3 hrs between supper & bed

FastingRocks Burning 2,000 cals per day via walking takes quite a few hours, unless you are a huge muscular bloke walking up a mountain - I hope you mean you walk until your total burn for the day is 2,000+ - i.e. not from exercise alone ?

If so, then adding 45-60 mins HIIT is a good idea to replace walking a 1-2 days per week.
Alternatively, you can add 5 minute HIIT "Fat Blasts" on 3-5 days per week, which Mosely recommends - he has referenced research showing how that can help insulin metabolism, like longer HIIT does.

And / or you can replace 1-2 days walk by strength exercises, so you aren't doing cardio every day.

Why not pop over to our 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3 and post a bit about your fitness level and aims and we can suggest a training plan.

Everyone welcome there, from total couch potato to very athletic. That thread OP has a lot of exercise advice & exercise science info.

BCF cinnamon walnut&berry muffins sound delish, could you share the recipe please?

I totally fell off the wagon yesterday. :(
Went through to teatime on 250kcal with no problem, but I ate my curry (another 250ish) and was still starving. So I finished DS' roti, then I had some toast, some breadsticks and peanut butter, two dates, an apple... Total FD fail.
Today I've been starving again. Stuck with an 8-hour feeding window, three meals with no snacking, all healthy stuff and stayed inside of TDEE (though not far inside of it). Didn't have the energy/wherewithal to do my workout this morning either.

Am remembering all the things you've helpfully said BCF, thank you... If all I can manage over the next few weeks is sticking with 16:8, eating healthily without snacking, drinking plenty of water (this last one never been a problem for me, tbf) then I suppose that will have to do and 5:2 can wait. It's hard not to feel a bit hopeless though.

I am going to try another FD tomorrow as usual. And if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, it's still going to be a healthy day and I am going to try to be kind to myself about it.

Hope DD is better soon confused.

I'm another fan of flaxseed. I like it in plain yoghurt, with sunflower seeds and raisins/chopped banana. I used to like it with honey too but I weaned myself off that for Lent (religious rather than fat loss purposes) and now it tastes too sweet for me.

Evening all sneaks back onto thread hoping no one notices

FD today, kitchen closed at 591 cals
Just need to nail nfd tomorrow... hope other tues fasters have had a good day

aha, you set off the thread tripwire - we spotted you, need !
Well done on your 1st FD back.

Neil Let's see what we can suggest to help you nail those FDs:

Your binge was on starchy carbs (bread) and sugar (apple, dates)
That's all very high GI, which spiked insulin and caused a cravings spiral

• On FDs only, go very strict low carb
  So, eat only protein & non-starchy veg (i.e. no potatoes or parsnips)
  Increase the amount of protein - You get a massive amount of veg for your calories, especially if your protein is low cal like prawns, baked fish fillet, tinned tuna (in brine, NOT oil)
  NO fruit, bread, rice, pasta etc
  No cheese, milk or yoghurt atm.
  No nuts or nut butter either. Too moreish and more carbs than you think
  Your only starchy carbs should be beans, lentils, peas

• Plan your meals in advance the day before and do NOT deviate from the plan

• If you feel you won't manage this, then have prepared protein snacks in the fridge - no veg, no nuts
  Best are hardboiled eggs, chicken breast, cooked prawns.
  Best keep it boring, because that dampens appetite. So, nothing with it except salt.

• As soon as you have finished your last planned meal for the day, drink a glass of water, the get up right away - leave the dishes - and clean your teeth, floss and use mouthwash.
  This really discourages further eating

• You could try going all day just with water, Bovril, tea and then having your 500 cals in one evening meal.

BigChoc - yes sorry, I meant 2000 calls total burn, so for me that's 1350ish class burnt even if I didn't get out of bed all day, and I make sure I've burned a total of 650 minimum from exercise. It's about 15000 steps per day for me.

I don't suppose you can shed any light on the Insulin like growth factor -1 thing? Why is it a good thing to hopefully lower it by fasting if it's a good thing to raise it by HIIT?

I'm another fan of flaxseed. I like it in plain yoghurt, with sunflower seeds and raisins/chopped banana.

Ooh thanks. Like that idea.

FastingRocks Some things are a tradeoff wrt health, not an unalloyed benefit
Your question about HIIT was posed a few times, including on Mosely's Fast Diet site - but not answered yet !
My thoughts:

The main aims of HIIT are to rapidly boost fitness and strength
It may also help correct insulin metabolism issues & target abs fat.

However, you need to balance these health benefits vs increased IGF1. In fact any strenuous exercise will increase IGF1 to some extent.
Prolonged cardio exercise, e.g. running 90 mins, reduces the effectiveness of the immune system. But running is very good at burning fat. Another tradeoff between healthy / not healthy.

All research clearly show that regular exercise - within safe limits for the individual - is beneficial for health
However, elite athletes - or those who push themselves to their absolute limits too often - are often not very healthy, e.g. impaired immune systems

So, my conclusion is that each individual should go by how they feel. Always cut back on vigorous exercise if you feel stressed, tired, or are getting too many minor illnesses or injuries.

However, less strenuous exercise like walking, leisure cycling and swimming does not significantly increase IGF1.
So people who choose not to exercise vigorously should at least aim for at least 30 mins of this level of gentler exercise on most days.

Personally, I prioritise fitness.
However, I limit my HIIT sessions to 1 hr, twice per week and I do 2-3 mins of sprints 1-2 days.
I also lift heavy, walk, cycle, occasionally box.

Wiggle, SeaEagle The FD version of my flaxmeal muffin - just with cinammon is Here on the 5:2 Recipes Thread.
On NFDs, I just mix with the dry ingredients a heaped tbsp each of chopped walnuts and say blueberries or goji berries

I often use melted coconut oil instead of the olive oil for my muffins - a nice flavour

Morning all.

Bad NFD yesterday. DD was absolutely fine all day, but keeping her home meant I couldn't do stuff I had planned, instead I stayed home and meshe'd about in he paddling pool with her. About 3pm we both fell asleep and when I woke I had the most terrible munchies. Obviously it was dehydration but fluid just didn't cut it.

So lots of crap consumed yesterday. I may attempt my second FD today. I feel like I could manage it fine. And I need to get back on the wagon!

Gym session in a bit then out and about all day. Good luck Wednesday fasters.

Thanks BigChoc