5:2 Thread number 62: "If God wanted me to touch my toes, she’d have put chocolate on the floor ?” There’s a more scientific approach to nutrition & fitness in our friendly support group.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

wow what an awesome SV Vib you must be feeling amazing

Well done!!! That's amazing. When did you start your 5 stone goal?

That's fair comment, BC - I wasn't intending to use the fish until after I'd completed the course. I'll mention a follow-up appointment when I pick up my blood results and prescription this afternoon.

Thanks.

Those suggestions sound good - I used to have a tagine fairly frequently, but not had it for a while.

I do eat dried apricots regularly - my lunch (shifted from breakfast) always includes a bowl of ground flaxseeds + either sunflower/pumpkin/sesame seeds and flaked almonds plus 2 each of prunes and dried apricots - with a little apple juice to moisten.

I've also got walnuts/cashew nuts/dates/dark chocolate to munch on instead of the sugary crap I've been having (only on weekends, now! )

X posted with the comment about exercise. That would explain it.

Thanks again!

Fantastic SV ella.

Hello all!

Just checking in to catch up. I did my first FD post Easter yesterday but boy did I need it.
I reckon I'll have a small gain this week or perhaps if I'm lucky I'll stay the same but unlike before I haven't felt disheartened or like I've failed (and proceed to eat the contents of my kitchen). I know if I stick to this any small gain will soon be gone and I can focus on continuing the downward trend!

Off to catch up on all the posts I've missed

Wow, 5 stone loss is a fantastic SV and milestone, Vibrantella
You're an inspiration to those starting with BMI 40+
Since you want to improve fitness now, do pop over to the 5:2 ExerciseThread3 for some ideas & support.
It's for all levels - you don't have to do 100s of pressups like lunatics B&W and I

Hi. Loving the thread.
Had a week of over indulgence, especially with wine . It just creeps up and up. Then it's almost impossible to eat sensibly the next day, never mind fast.
I have even considered joining one of the 'dry' threads.
However, back on course. Might as well eh.
So, no booze tonight. Doing well so far, tbh I would normally have had a couple of glasses by now.
And a FD tomorrow.

NFD today but only had a nandos lunch as that takes me to nearly TDEE. Just did the beginners shred, found the first half tough with upper body strength but managed ok with the ab work. Slowly but surely!

Felicity What about Dry April ?
It sounds like booze is interfering with both FDs and NFDs, which must be tough for you.

Excess alcohol can be a major obstacle to losing weight & inches:
. The extra alcohol calories
. The extra calories from the accompanying nibbles
. Alcohol stops the body burning fat until the liver has processed all the toxic alcohol byproducts
. Alcohol tends to lay down fat preferentially around your middle - beer belly, wine belly.

Cheeky... Don't know if you know but it's possible to have a FD at nandos too.....half chicken, corn and side salad is around 500 I believe...hopefully one of the pros can confirm though? I used to use nandos as a good opportunity to eat out with friends but stick to a FD and not feel deprived!

NFD here..fairly decent although I did eat a few savoury biscuits which wasn't ideal but I did have a 6.5 mile run so wasn't a huge disaster. FD tomorrow, yay!!!

Oh really? I had a double chicken breast fillet wrap with peri peri chips and mayo dip it's my guilty pleasure. I feel better that I did the beginners shred though!

Thanks ever so much, everybody, all the support here means a lot! I set up this goal on 5 April last year, a couple of months after getting a T2D diagnosis at my highest weight ever (it took me that long to get through shock, denial, anger etc.). Started with strict LC to control the diabetes, added fasting about 6 months later, and recently some more movement (walking to work and short Fast HIIT sessions a couple of times per week). I will pop back to the fitness thread, thanks BCF.

So, ladies and gents, fasting works - let's keep on keeping on!

Hi all!

Got alot of catching up to do on this thread as been very busy over Easter. Lots of gardening, walking and cycling which I've really enjoyed but some serious ups and downs in mindful eating, culminating in a highly stressful day yesterday when I wanted to do my postponed Monday fast but had to rethink as No1 most stressful relative hadn't left due to illness so had an awful day and watched myself slip into 'old over eating habits'.

Did keep overindulgence somewhat in check, which is good, had a good NFD today and ready for FD business as usual tomorrow. Having to accept there are going to be blips in my journey back to health and slimness...... but so wish this wasn't the case.

Have seen vib's post though - huge congratulatuions, so inspiring to read as a relative newbie who started at BMI 40 in January. Well done I'm sure you'll reach your ultimate goal and I fully intend to follow in your footsteps!

Have started some pressups as well as HIIT walking so am going to head to the exercise thread soon for a bit of advice!

I've just stood on the scales and I'm exactly the same weight as I was before starting 5:2 (started last Monday so just over a week ago). When I checked the morning after my second fast last week, I had definitely lost a few pounds. Just hope it's more of a timing issue than me putting it back on feel so annoyed with myself for a) standing on the scales b) not doing this diet properly

vibrantella that's so. Impressive. How fabulous. Well done.
bugsy . Amazing tip!
cheeky sorry you're disappointed. But isn't it a bit soon to be chastising yourself?

Dry April? Good idea. But I wouldn't make it. Its a possibility for Later though. And I aim to be much more strict, no drinking during the week type thing.

Third alternate day fast here - after an 11 hour, very stressful work day too. I am finding homemade soup a godsend on the FDs, though today's kale and leek was very... Liqudy .

FD but no exercise today
Am shattered and slightly ashamed about the fact I ate an entire easter egg yesterday. The baby isn't sleeping any better and just wants to feed all night. I say baby, he's 14 months now!

NSV- someone at work with told me I look fantastic, unexpected complement which made me feel quite proud of myself.

Amazing results on this thread, well done people!

Yay on the nsv gincam. I remember that tiredness very well.
Well done panda. I will need your "will of iron" today, my first fd in over a week.
Nfd yesterday but not booze. Feel pretty amazing despite ds waking me up at 3am!

Morning all and good luck to the Thursday fasters.
Post if it gets tough or just to say how you are dong

Well done on your compliments NSV, gin You know your shape is changing when other people notice without you asking their opinion.
Lost inches = lost bodyfat

It's absolutely part of this WOE to enjoy a special occasion, like an egg at Easter. It makes it sustainable. Totally different from a weekly binge habit.
If your NFDs over the week average around TDEE, then you'll continue to lose. Weight loss is a longterm process over weeks.

Cheeky Same advice to you - it's tough starting just before Easter. You obviously ate back all your previous FD deficit.
Don't worry. Last week was practice at fasting, so you know 5:2 works for you when you actually do it.
Regard today as your real start.

Useful tip about Nando's, bugsy

Rosieforever Wed 30-Mar-16 11:54:33
Hi eveyone.
I'm new here so thought I'd jump right in and introduce myself.
It's my first time here, but 3rd attempt at 5:2. It really worked for me 3 years ago when I first tried it and thought I'd found the holy grail of dieting!
But i drifted away from fasting and regained all the lost weight, plus a few extra pounds. I've about 30 pounds to lose and and I really hope I can do it this time.
I started back fasting last week and slipped back into it easily enough. It's really my non fast days that are the trouble for me, I've got to stop eating like a teenager, the days of burning off whatever I eat with little or no effort are sadly long gone.
I look forward to getting to know you all.

P.S Thank you to breadandwine for advising that I'd posted in the wrong thread
NEWBIE!!!!!! alert
x

Thanks bcf, I'm hoping that because I stood on the scales last night it was bound to fluctuate that much anyway and if I stand again tomorrow morning I'll still see a loss I've definitely lost a bit of weight /puffiness around my tummy as its changed shape so that's something. just had cupping done which acts as a great detox.

FD today too, got an all afternoon meeting from 12.30 so that should distract me...
will have to resist the lunch before hand and the cakes and biscuits at coffee break...
actually, food has just been delivered and it looks amazing sigh

Anyway, can't do FD tomorrow as off with DS and going out for the day, i don't want to be all shouty and hangry with him!! Wish me luck to resist everyone

Morning all, second FD today and it's B2B - I thought I'd try it out as an opportunity arose. Going great so for, except I seem to be getting a headache - I'm practically swimming in water and black coffee, so it's probably nothing to do with the fasting.

Clear, thanks, you'll get there! It's a marathon, not a sprint, and what I now understand, there is no finish line. As BCF says, if you go back to your old way of eating, you go back to your old weight, and I don't want that to happen.

Cheeky, I have often felt stung by a random scale number, so I tried only weighing myself every 2-3 weeks. Now I'm doing it weekly, but even then sometimes the scale seems stuck (or worse, the weight's up by a lb or 2). I'm seriously thinking about daily weighing, just to become more aware of the patterns (TOTM, late dinner, alcohol, not enough water, etc.). Hope your regular weigh-in gives a more realistic number!

Felicity well done with controlling the booze, it's so important in body composition as well as willpower!

Gin, great NSV!

Rosie, welcome! My next goal is about 30 lbs as well! I know what you mean about NFDs, I moaned about it recently and BCF gave some great advice - recording the NFDs on mfp (or other app/online) really helps me when I go out of control.

Welcome, Rosie and good luck on your 1st FD back

Man folk find NFDs are the problem, because the main reason for becoming overweight is just eating more than suitable for your individual body.
You are very right about teenagers burning it all off - your TDEE once you've finished filling out, around age 25, is a bit lower than when you were 16, plus as an adult you've probably increased alcohol cals and reduced exercise
TDEE drops every decade and then your metabolism can really really change with pre-meno, meno.
Also, you may eat as your 5'10" chum does, or their male OH does - and he might have a TDEE double yours.

You need to calculate your TDEE and I recommend you train yourself with mfp to average within this on NFDs.
What really helps: No snacking and keep alcohol within safe limits
Try to roughly plan your NFD meals in advance
It takes at least a month to learn new habits, but mfp helps with portion size and also highlights calorie bombs, like booze & teenage junk.

Checking in.
hi rosie you can do this, one day at a time, agree 5:2 is the holy grail, it suits me better than the popular ones.
Plan your nfd in advance is a good plan then you can see where the slip ups start.
Fd#2 here. Just had FD omelette & spicy tomatoes. Was getting twitchy, the last supper was 6pm yesterday. Think I'll make cauliflower soup for later.. .
Good luck Thursday fasters and all have a good one.