5:2 Thread No. 59: Oh the weather outside is frightful. But the fasting is so delightful. And since we've no place to go, let's jump back in the 5:2 flow !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal
Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
===================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well, I have to report that the 5 part of my 5:2 avoiding crap exercise went really well, this week. I had nothing, apart from a few dates, between midnight on Sunday and after my lunch today!

I wasn't particularly surprised that I could do this, since, as I've said, once I'm in the zone, I find it fairly easy to stick to something. What did surprise me was that I didn't leap upon the nearest bit of chocolate as soon as it was 'allowed'. Instead, I measured out a couple of ginger chocs, a choc liqueur and a tiny piece of marzipan* - and thoroughly enjoyed them. And I found it easy to stop - again to my surprise. Except that I thought I should have some 70% choc - so I had one piece of that.

(*That's what I would have had twice a day - and more - prior to this!)

Now, I'm planning what treats to have after dinner - I'm tempted to make a chocolate cake (in a mug), plus several chocs from my stash, of course!

Once again, BC, you're on the ball - I can already see that this is the way to dampen down the desire for unnecessary sweets.

About the alcohol: no beer at all during the week, not even a shandy. So the pre-dinner pint of stout I had today was - wonderful!

Some lovely SVs and NSVs for us all to relish since I posted last - well done everyone!

Keep 'em coming!

Meant to give a link to the chocolate cake - calorie counted and suitable for a NFD treat.

Only had a third instead of my usual half - and did without any ice cream!

Morning all!
Workmen finally gone so my WOE can return to normal this week - planning and eating proper meals at home rather than eating quickly and snacking on the go. It has made me feel greedy and quite grumpy but the new bathroom looks fantastic so overall I'm happy.

FD for me today. Wouldn't usually fast on a Sunday but have no plans that involve social eating today so figure I'll give myself a break and just have a cuppa soup for lunch then a small portion of a light butternut squash risotto for dinner. No need to worry about going back for seconds as OH will hoover the lot up before I get the chance!!

Well done everyone who saw SVs and NSVs this week!!

I'm having an FD today as well, maggie
Salmon, veg and a Kindle scifi orgy for me.
Good luck to us both

Morning,
Interesting clips in regard to bmi ratio etc.
My body's still not responding. I'm up 9lb on last weekend. Quite off putting, pissed off2 gym sessions, 1 fast day & 2 average tdee days. I tell myself it's fluid.
Planned my day to be lower & wait.
Well done on all the sv & nsv.x

annie I can understand you feel fed up with that gain. I suppose 1 FD is not enough to create enough of a calorie deficit over the week to lose, but I would expect you to maintain. Is it totm, constipation or water retention? In my experience exercise doesn't help as much with weight loss as calories reduction. It's great to tone and for fitness obviously. If you can keep going i'm sure you will see the result very soon.

Morning all, hope you don't mind me joining in again. Did 5:2 for a while and then it just sort of all fell apart as my life changed. In the right headspace and raring to go. Starting weight is 13st 4.5lbs and planning on doing regular FD's on Tues and Thurs but am kick starting getting back in to this woe today. Great to see some familiar faces . Off out for a run, fingers crossed I don't get blown away xx

Sorry love, that's since Wednesday night. No pmt/totm. My inside are generally slow so could be that or has to be fluid. It's such a big jump in a short time, annoying!!!

Hello, I have decided to start the 5:2 diet (again!).

Last time I struggled with finding meals to prepare which didn't go over the 500kcals, and I was always so fed up that I just ended up giving up after a while (tho I did lose about 5lbs last time, which I haven't kept off).

I think I'm going to stick to having tins of soup this time to keep temptation at bay. I've also had a look at the lighter life fast packs and I might get a couple of those for convenience (v expensive so won't be relying on them all of the time!).

Can anyone recommend any herbal teas for keeping hunger at bay (I find peppermint tea makes me thirsty and I'm not a fan of the fruity ones really).

Any other snacky type products people can recommend would be great (ryvita etc.).

I am really determined this time. I've sorted out a routine for going to the gym and I'm doing well on C25K.

I am 5ft 7in and weigh 11st 7lbs and wear a size 12/14. I want to get down to 10st by the summer and be a comfortable size ten (might need to go to 9st 10ish realistically).

Back to two FDs last week, didn't go over on either of them. Also a bit more controlled on my nFD as well.

Still looking through the recipes from earlier links and going to give them a try.

Welcome back, Joby

Annie 9lb within a week is much higher than a typical blip. Are you around totm ?

Please check you are weighing consistently:

• replace batteries in scales
• same scales in exactly the same place, same surface, same time of day
• ideally naked first thing in the morning, after loo, before drinking or eating.
• Switch on, wait 3 secs for the scales to settle
• Don't jump on, just step normally, don't move about or lean to one side or the other

Exercise is good for health & maintaining weight, but often doesn't help much in losing
Even if you binge ate huge amounts the other 4 days, you can't possibly have gained more than 2-3 lb fat in a week.
However, fasting / binge cycles might interfere with digestion and you may have 9lb of undigested food and fluid backed up, if you tend to constipation anyway.

I suggest you keep within TDEE for the next week.
However, if it's not totm and if you haven't dropped a few lb by about Wednesday, do see your GP - don't just stay like this:
They may just need to give you a laxative (but there are a few other reasons for sudden weight gain, which they might also check)

Welcome back, dog
We strongly advise NO snacks because small nibbles are not satisfying and tends to keep your insulin raised, which hinders fat-burning and increases hunger.

Concentrate on low GI protein & veg meals for FDs. Some folk do better without starches or fruit on those days.
Most folk have coffee for breakfast, to save the 500 cals for lunch and supper, or just have a 500-cal supper.
Check the links to FD recioes and meals under the How to Start section of the OP.

An alternative to 2 x 500 FDs for weight loss is having mini-FDs (sub-1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri.
Or ease gradually into 5:2 over a few weeks, with 2 x 800 cal FDs, then 2 x 700 etc

If peppermint tea makes you thirsty, that's great: drink lots of water.
Insufficient water may be part of your problem: You need more water on 5:2, because the reduced food on FDs supplies less moisture than you are used to.
Start the day with a glass and keep drinking

annie. I also find a really salty meal can put me up by a couple of lbs. especially as we don't really like a lot of salt in this house.

same goes for drinking 2 days in a row- I always have fluid retention the third day.

Now back to hovering over a sick child with gastro to try to prevent a third load of post midnight washing.

Well done everyone on your SVs and NSVs! I've got a NSV of my own to add - I went to a Christmas party last night, where I saw a few people I hadn't seen in ages; and got a lot of compliments on my weight loss and how good I was looking. Nice little boost. :D

I went over TDEE by about 700kcals though. Trying to do a bit of damage control today, but I have already fallen prey to my hangover - have eaten a bacon sandwich and a plate of pasta today . I'm actually looking forward to my FD tomorrow to try and repair some of the damage!

Thanks BigChoc. I am going to do my first fast day in months tomorrow. I think I'll have soup for lunch (204 kcals). I will see how things go re dinner as I might allow myself to go slightly over 500kcals to ease back into it (700 max I think).

Re mini fast days, if did three days at 750 kcals each, would that work? I'd still make sure I didn't go above 1800kcals on NFDs.

Yup, if you don't feel ready for sub-650 FDs, Dog then best to start with 3 non-consecutive mini-FDs. 750 would be fine, or anything you can manage under 1000, provided you keep sensible NFDs

Morning all. It's great to hear about your SVs / NSVs.

First ever FD today. 3yo DS2 kept me up half the night so am feeling a bit shit but determined to fast properly.

I usually do a bodypump class on Monday evenings, is that a bit ambitious on my first fast day?

Morning all.
Good luck Ewan! I and many others on here regularly exercise on fast days (actually I feel best exercising on FDs). But I did take a month or so to pluck up the courage - although it was absolutely fine. Exercise is an appetite suppressant, albeit a short-term one. If you're unsure it may be best to ease yourself into it by skipping the class or at least going slower / lighter than usual.
Well my eye is finally better but the virus is attacking my digestive system now! I am experiencing the most horrific sulphurous wind (both ends - nice) and loose, erm, bowels. Just taken some Andrews and hoping it'll setlle down soon. One thing's for certain - my planned FD today will be no problem. The idea of eating is NOT appealing.

Good luck all Monday fasters.

Just read that your class is this evening Ewan. In that case if you think you can manage it when the time comes, just go for it (before your evening meal). Then just eat and go to bed.

Morning all,

going for Monday FD here in preparation for the works Christmas do on Thursday. On my second large glass of water already..

The weekend... was a bit rubbish really. I think I was around TDEE... maybe slightly over (100 / 200 cals - fine as under in the week)... but I appear to have eaten nothing of any nutritional value at all (tube of pringles anyone?!) ! Also didn't drink enough water, and am feeling pretty crap for both those today so glad of the FD to get back on track.

My second FD this week will mark exactly 3 months since I started 5:2, so I'm keen to have a really good week and be able to have a positive update when I measure on Thursday morning!

Morning all

Good luck on your 1st FD, Ewan
Most folk manage to exercise on FD, but some need to get used to fasting first.
Drink plenty of water, concentrate on protein and veg for your meal(s) and see how you feel.
Try a double espresso 10 mins before training, because it can help make bodyfat available as fuel

Pump should be fine because it is quite HIIT; Some folk find steady state medium intensity (e.g. elliptical trainer, running) v tough at first, because depends more on glycogen.

Well new week and look for a response.
Got through the morning on water. Cuppa soup with do till tonights meal.
BC, does the amount of glycogen diminish during a FD and then replace on a nfd? And if you stick to tdee no extra will store??? Could you explain layman or point where the info is - your knowledge is so amazing.

FD today.

Didn't manage to keep to no snacking at weekend. We went to a Christmas market so had to have chestnuts, a bite of sausage, a bite of doughnut, half a cup of hot choc and we had lamb salad wrap as supper. Then a glass of mulled wine and a glass of wine at a friend's.

But only had porridge for breakfast and pea and ham soup for lunch (home made). Couple of choc biscuits as snack - oops.

Yesterday maybe slightly better. Bacon and blackpudding half baguette for breakfast. Roast lamb, veg, potatoes and parsnip for supper, one glass of wine, yoghurt. I had a mini Twix instead of lunch.

Not quite sure how to cope with today, DP is making shepherd's pie with the left over lamb. And we have an amazing pork pie we bought at the market, but I won't get any of that as I am away from tomorrow (probably won't manage another fast this week, may have to do next weekend). Oh well, dp can eat all the pie then.

I'll just have one scoop of shepherd's pie and a pile of veg I think.

Both DH and I on a fast day today!! Good luck to all the other Monday fasters!