5:2 Thread No. 59: Oh the weather outside is frightful. But the fasting is so delightful. And since we've no place to go, let's jump back in the 5:2 flow !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal
Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
===================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

maddy it's best to rinse the quinoa grains and mix in a little bit of olive oil before cooking, just to coat the grains. Then add twice as much water or stock, bring to the boil then turn down and simmer on low for 20 mins or so. Check and stir every couple of mins after 20 have elapsed.

or if you have a rice cooker or slow cooker you can cook it in that. I love the stuff

FD today. I seem to be doing 4:3, that's ok isn't it?

Green tea / coffee / bovril / water all day and then a lovely dahl tonight.

Thanks Ewan. smile]I did rinse it and the packet stated to simmer for 20 mins but I think 10 would have done it as it turned to mush. Live and learn!!

NSV for me today, in a way- having a FD and went to a friends house where there was all sorts of biscuits and treats on offer but I stuck to a black coffee only!!! Never usually manage to resist treats, but kept thinking I can have a biscuit tomorrow and I don't want to spoil the fast day.
Looking forward to soup for dinner, feeling very chilly today.

was it red or white? I usually used red but I think white cooks a bit faster so 15 mins should do.

cheese Many folk have lost several stone on 5:2
You'll lose both lb and inches more quickly than those on lower BMI, which is motivating.
You can do this !

Cerid It sounds like your body is still struggling to recover from that nasty illness. So in your case, do NOT fast until you feel 100%.

• Train yourself to eat within sedentary TDEE
• Proper meals only, no snacks. Comfort food like mac 'n cheese is ok
• You are recuperating, so 2:5 the bioze and choc, i.e. on 2 non-consecutive days per week, have ONE sensible portion
• See if you can manage daily 14:10, i.e. eating only within a 10-hr window, e.g. 10am - 7 pm

14:10 e.g. 10am - 8 pm < clumsy fingers>

It's ok to add a 3rd FD, Ewan, but make sure your WOE is sustainable, i.e. don't push too hard and return to 5:2 as soon as you feel the strain

Thanks moo, I hadn't noticed Mosely had a new book - I've just downloaded it for the weekend.
Sounds like it's based on the radical Newcastle Uni Hospital Protocol which is being trialled, to reverse pre-T2 and T2.

WARNING: Geeky Stuff coming up !

Causes & How to Reverse Pre-T2 and T2 Diabetes
Prof. Taylor (Newcastle Uni) presented the Twin Cycle Hypothesis to explain the cause of type 2 diabetes: Pathogenesis of type 2 diabetes
and proposed a v strict diet to reverse it:

8 weeks on 800 cals per day, composed of 600 cals shakes plus 200 cals non-starchy veg
Diet Outline , DietDetails
However, others have had similar success with the 800 cals composed of lean protein & non-starchy veg - similar idea maybe to Mosely's book.

A clinical study designed to test the hypothesis was funded by Diabetes UK Reversal of type 2 diabetes and the related Newcastle University Press Release, Diet Reverses Type 2 Diabetes

Twin Cycle Hypothesis
Too much fat within liver and pancreas prevents normal insulin action and prevents normal insulin secretion.
Both defects are reversible by substantial weight loss via a sharp reduction in food intake.

Individuals have different levels of tolerance of fat within liver and pancreas.
Some people accumulate fat in the liver and pancreas, despite theoretically having a "healthy" BMI.
Some can tolerate a BMI of 40+, whereas others - especially of S. Asian origin - cannot tolerate a BMI of 22+ and need to aim around 19.

When a person has more fat than their personal fat threshold, then T2 develops.
After they lose weight and go below this threshold, T2 will disappear.

This is why weight gain is such a risk factor for T2, particularly if that weight is carried around the stomach region.

cheese I am a lurker but follow this thread and just had to post to you as you mentioned you needed 6 stone weight loss.

I started 5:2 last January 2015 as a size 18-20 and very overweight. I am now a size 10 and have lost nearly 6 stone - this was through religious 5:2 (and being careful on NFDs) and exercise. I am about to enrol on a gym instructor course!

I just wanted to show you that it is entirely doable and not insurmountable so please don't feel this is the case

You can do it - and it is so worth it!!

Fantastic achievement, Inglourious !

A great inspiration, especially for those starting at BMI 40+
When you are a gym instructor, you can really be convincing about how fasting & exercise can be life-changing, if people persist and have patience.

Wow Inglorious, now THAT's inspiring!!

And I'm certainly in need of some inspiration. I'm really struggling to get back to normal after the indulgence of Christmas. My appetite has increased and I'm finding it difficult to feel satisfied. I hit my final goal just before Christmas. I'm now 4 pounds over my "happy weight" bracket so want to get back to that as soon as possible. Help!

congratulations inglourious

Well done inglourious you must be so proud of yourself. And you must have a whole new wardrobe?!

NFD for me and although I've broken the no snack rule I am on TDEE. FD tmoz then the weekend to contend with.

Wow inglorious that's amazing!!

FD finished for me at 540 cals. Added a tiny bit of bread with my soup so went over 500 but felt really hungry so I figured it was better to add a measured amount than start ransacking the kitchen cupboards after my sensible dinner!!

Bus Really work at getting back on track. 4lb won't take long, but don't let it become ½ stone and more.

Are you managing the FDs ok ?

On NFDs, I recommend:

• NO snacking, EVER Even "healthy" snacks (of 50+ cals) keep insulin levels raised, increase hunger and reduce fat-burning.
• 2 weeks low GI Mediteranean - loads of veg, replace simple starches by complex carbs, e.g. quinoa, brown rice, sweet pots, wholegrain bread. Add oily fish 3 days per week.
• No more than 2 portions fruit per day, NO fruit juice, NO sugary breakfast cereal.
• Preferably no booze or sugary crap at all, but if you must then only on 2 non-consecutive days, ONE sensible portion.

I just glanced at Mosely's Blood Sugar Diet book and I see Prof Taylor actually wrote the forward.
So, book is based on leading edge science from a v respectable source: Taylor won the Diabetes UK Banting prize and they are funding his 5-yr trial.

maple bigchoc inglorious thanks i am motivated to do this diet or should I say WOE, just got a bit wobbly trying imagine actually be able to lose SO much weight. I'm going for another FD tomorrow, aiming for herbal tea breakfast, 100 kcal lunch will be a fish finger and slice of nimble, and 400kcal vegetable soup with wholemeal pasta.

Thanks inglorious for your comment, and congratulations on your weight loss you must be feeling amazing for doing so well! And good on you for becoming a gym instructor, You will be a fantastic inspiration for gym newbies (like me!). Can I ask how you're managing to keep the weight off?

Had my second FD today and it was much harder though I was more sensible with what I ate. But kitchen closed on 510 cal

L- Spinach and mushroom with chopped up egg
Itsu chicken noodle pot

D- cabbage slaw with chopped up chicken breast

S- x2 bouillon

I am ABSOLUTELY STARVING. I hope this gets easier.

Ethel Most folk need at least 2 weeks for their body to get used to fasting, then it becomes much easier
If you really get desperate, you could ease your way in with say 700 cal FDs - a few people do seem to need a gentler start to fasting and it is much better to have 700 cal days than to crash out.

Another FD today and kitchen closed on 536. Thought I had defrosted my lentil and venison stew and got in to find it was just some green lentils so had to improvise. Lovely tea in the end of courgetti with pancetta and Arabiatta sauce and just slightly over on cals.

Big choc, that sounds exactly what is based on, but gives the option of food instead of shakes.
Some interesting recipes in the book.

Inglorious that's amazing. Makes me inspired to keep going and wish that if stuck to it last year.

Can anyone help me with my headache??? I've literally had a headache since mid morning on Monday. Could it be the lack of sugar/ booze? I'm drinking loads of water. Had a stock cube etc. Last night it even stopped me sleeping properly.

It's like I've given up caffeine (but I haven't!)

Day1 of B2B FDs and I'm finishing up on 678, which I'm happy with.

Planned my food for tomorrow and feeling confident I can make it!

To anyone who is struggling with early fast days I can promise it gets easier. It feels like only yesterday I was wondering if I could manage and now I look forward to fast days.

Despite nuts and chocolate I am under tdee today which is great as it balances out yesterday. Obviously easier as am not boozing.

Going to try for a FD tomorrow, or at least a mini as am travelling all day.

Evenin' all.

I've just caught up with the thread from last posting in December, a MASSIVE well done to everyone who maintained or at least kept things in check over the break, it's such a testament to this WOL that the festive period no longer does such damage to our waists!

Welcome to all the joiners too, I hope you find it as easy as I have. I started at the beginning of August and am just 2lb shy of a 3 stone weightloss which is better than I have ever achieved before with any other diet.

I've not slipped off the wagon but I've been faffing a bit and don't want to lose my momentum so I'm going to make myself accountable on here again.

I don't think I actually completed a FD over the break as I'd get to the end of the day, open the fridge to start cooking one of my standard FD dinners and all of a sudden would find myself mobbed by all kinds of tasties leaping onto my plate. Somehow a wine glass would appear, as if by magic, in my hand and that would be the end of it.
I suppose I was doing 20:4 or some variation every day because I somehow managed to lose 4lb over Christmas and New Year. Feel free to throw your rotting left over sprouts, I would.
I did start at the gym back in December and have been doing a little jogging on the treadmill so that's a lot more exercise than before.

So anyway, although it clearly worked, I want to get back to healthy eating, less of the wine and proper distinct 5:2ing.
I'm just rounding off my second FD of the year, I hoovered up a homemade biscuit around 1ish as it was the last one and I wanted to wash the plate (no idea how many calories) then dinner this evening was 3 scrambled eggs with a big pile of spinach, broccoli and kale. Lots of black coffee and water throughout the day.

Tomorrow I'm going to eat normally, all the holiday cheese has gone and there is nothing out of the ordinary in the fridge to ambush me.
I'm going to Pilates in the evening which I tried in December and quite enjoyed although my thighs didn't. There is also a Yoga class I fancy giving a go.

I have signed up to walk/run 3 miles for Sport Relief in March so that's my goal to keep up the exercise and drop another stone at least but it would be nice if I could get down to around the 10 mark by then, currently 11.7.
10 stone is the top end of my healthy BMI range so it would be a lovely bonus to be there and able to run the full 3 miles. I still have godawful sciatica so we shall see.

Good luck tomorrow's fasters! May the force be with you

Happy New Year everyone.