5:2 Thread No. 59: Oh the weather outside is frightful. But the fasting is so delightful. And since we've no place to go, let's jump back in the 5:2 flow !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal
Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
===================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Just wondering does anyone know offhand how many calories are in enough skimmed milk for a cup of tea?

Stay strong, Monday fasters. Not long to go and then one of our mantras:
You can have it tomorrow

Welcome back, hornet You did well during your break.
You should be able to reach your 60kg target quite early and then maintain this year.

Vibrantella If you are a real apple shape, you need to cut down on alcohol, added sugar, white carbs portion size because they all tend to pile on fat around your middle.
I recommend low GI Mediteranean, with quinoa, brown rice, wholegrain bread, sweet pots as your complex carbs. Try to have whole fruit and plain Greek yoghurt for pud.
Cut out fruit juice and sugary cereals.
If you can't cut out sugary crap, then 2:5 it, i.e. just allow it on 2 non-consecutive days per week, preferably sane portion size, but ALWAYS as lart of a meal, no snacking on crap

Cheese Many folk find carbs on FDs can increase hunger.
Sounds like you need to concentrate on protein and veg; leave the starchy carbs and fruit for NFDs.

Blossom A minority of folk drink a lot of alcohol and remain slim BUT they generally suffer the same sort of internal damage.
The liver especially may not show many symptoms until it has been seriously damaged.
Also, the risks of cancer and heart disease increase with excess alcohol.
Of course, smoking has the highest risk, but it's worrying how many people ignore the safe alcohol limits. They may get away with it a long time - until they don't.

Uphill You can combine 5:2 with any way of eating you like: low carb / paleo / vegan / WW etc.
We deliberately try not to make too many general rules, just the really important ones - No snacking and safe alcohol limits.
I often suggest specific tweaks to help individual posters.

cheese For future ref: I've replaced cow's milk with unsweetened almond milk for almost everything. I prefer the taste and it has

Thanks bigchoc I get the no carbs thing but my problem on FDs is tummy acid... I need a little carby something to hold all the vegetabley goodness down.

Unsweetened almond milk sounds like a promising try out.

Evening all and hello to newbies. Well done Blossom and Darcy and anyone else who's maintained/got to goal.

First FD done and kitchen closed on 484. First time I've ever done a FD on a day off and it was fine. Even managed a 45 min body attack class. TDEE is 1484 as I'm only 5 foot and I'm currently 60 kgs/9 stone 4.5 which makes my BMI 25.8. This is overweight on my frame.

Managed a boiled egg and mushrooms for brekkie and Nigellas lush Indian Spiced Cod with cous cous and carrot salad for tea I only had a 26 cal miso soup for lunch. Made it more exciting with Quorn chicken (34 cals) and some ginger and chilli! Not veggie but find Quorn quite handy as it low in cals and cooks straight from the freezer.

All prepped to go back to work tomorrow. Bought some harissa paste to spice up veggies. Only 9 cals in 10g!

Been experimenting with my spiralizer to cut cals further. Does anybody else use one? Sorry if you all know all this, I'm just very excited!

Right, second FD done. Kitchen closed on 504 calories. I even let the dog have the last spoonful of my ready meal as it was cheese sauce and she was obviously loving the smell, so perhaps it was under 500 after all :)

I suppose I won't consider the day really done until I wake up tomorrow morning having not raided the fridge in the night!

That's an excellent 1st FD, MrsFizzy resisting the kids' dinner as well !
Well done too, Cheese, annie, lovemyway, pixie

FD tip: After your 500 cals, clean your teeth, to reduce temptation.
Alternatives to Marmite: A tbsp unsweetened soy sauce, or a hot Bovril.
b2b (back2back FDs): You can have 650 cals per day. (This b2b version of 5:2 is based on Michelle Harvie's research & human trials for breast cancer charities)

Cheese With stomach acid, cut out fruit on FDs.
I suggest you have a small portion of boiled or baked potato (not mashed or fried) / brown rice / quinoa / wholegrain bread.
Avoid breakfast cereal on FDs, due to high GI and avoid fruit juice on any day.

Well done on your FD, olives, short

Short I just posted a spiraliser recipe for zucchini "noodles" on the 5:2 Recipes thread

This is lush for NFDs:
NFD sweet potato mac & cheese
. Spiralise desired amount of sweet pot
. Add salt, pepper, optionally tiny pieces of chilli and fry in dash of oil for 5-7 mins until tender
. Make cheese sauce your way and stir in noodles to combine

Have finished on about 780, pleased with that, as well as my swim.

No booze. But then it is only day 1....

Just done my first FD and kitchen closed (as you say) on 533 calories.

I had:
2 boiled eggs
Brown rice with lots of spinach and mushrooms
Virgin Mary

Cup of hot bouillon as a snack

Fitbit says I have used 1800 calories today so that's a 1250 cal deficit which isn't too bad when you are 5'2''!

Im not weighing myself but I am aiming (long term) for a 26 inch waist but short term for 28 inch and seeing how it goes.

Next FD is Wednesday.

My late lunch/tea was a large avocado over loads of chopped celery and red pepper, and a few anchovies on top. All dressed with cider vinegar, salt and coarse ground black pepper, and olive oil from the anchovy jar. Yummy, and only 439 cals! Plus 25 cals from a stock cube I used to make a mug of salty goodness earlier.

BigChoc, excellent recommendations - I would not touch sugary crap with a bargepole any more, due to the T2D, and eat very low carb. My carbs really only come from veggies, little fruit (in season) and measured portions of raw nuts and seeds.

hornetgirl great tips too, especially about not keeping "treats" in the house. I prefer green teas to fruit ones, myself! Off to make another cup, it should take me to bedtime.

Well done all today's fasters! :)

Ooh thanks choc I'll check that out!

Thanks bigchoc yes I am a lover of wholegrain bread

Hi all. Had a mini today and finished under 1000. FD tmoz. Also day 3 of no booze (attempting dry January). I had a loss on the scale this morning (probs due to no weekend booze) but I'm not quite pre chrimbo weight yet.

Had this for din and have enough for lots of leftovers : ifoodreal.com/smoky-lentil-and-black-bean-chili/

And knocked up a tray full of this for work FD lunches : cafedelites.com/2015/08/03/spinach-and-ricotta-zucchini-cannelloni/

So much easier to do this if I have planned and prepared meals lined up.

Well impressed with blossom and mr d! Well done all other fasters and hello to new peeps.

FD done, salmon tom yum soup was seriously good. Must work out exactly how many cals was in it but can't have been more than 300.

I was going to say, for the non marmite or bovril takers, there is 'Marigold Swiss Bouillon' as a drink. 17 cals for a teaspoon in a mug of hot water. Very sustaining.
Specific message for cheese or was it olive with the sensitive post ulcer gut, have you been tested for helicobacter? Google it.
My fast day wasn't perfect, probably came in under 700 due to eating both pieces of salmon as I had to defrost both to get them out of the pack. Still way better than a NFD or Christmas holiday intake, and eases me into the FD groove again. Looking forward to breakfast! Well done fellow fasters.

Excellent 1st FD, ethelb

Vibrantella Most people with pre-T2 need about 3 months lowish carb to let their pancreas and insulin system have a rest, but can then gradually build in small portions of complex starchy carbs, not white or flour-based.
This adds variety, nutrients and also avoids depressing thyroid function, which happens to some women on prolonged v low carb.

Research has shown these help pre-T2 and T2:
Lentils, sprouted carbs, e.g. sprouted brown rice, beans, buckwheat.
I recommend Sprouted bread too, for those want a healthy option.

Ok first day done and I came in at 511 (possibly slighter under as I had to guess the amount of Flora Pro Activ so guessed higher rather than lower). It is also my first alcohol free day for a while.

A quick question, I have mapped out my meals for tomorrow on mfp and it is coming out at 1100 calories, does it matter that I am under my TDEE and should I add something?

It was me with the ulcer, and I tested negative for helicobacter. It happened during enormous unprecedented stress and flares up again if I get tense so I blame that. Am hoping that if I lose a bit of weight it will help at least with the reflux and indigestion that come with it.

Edna those recipes look delicious and am going to try them both.

Hornet good tips indeed, but alas I live with DIL and family and she loves to cook, especially anything sweet. Obviously, to add insult to injury she is as skinny as a rake!

A reasonably successful FD for me coming in at 550 calories. Re-acquainted myself with 30 Day Shred, which was a bit of a shock to the system though I should probably have tackled it earlier in the day. Now feeling ridiculously tired, but I need to get some work done before bedtime.

Well done to all Monday fasters - a good day all round.

FD done on 516, feeling smug now.
Had an hour long brisk walk at lunchtime too, which felt so good.

Sleep well fasters and savour your non fast day meals tomorrow, they'll taste amazing.

Really want a spiralizer! For the newbies, if you like noodles and asian flavours try konjac noodles. They are 16 cals for a big bowlful. Made from a veg starch they are tasteless but filling and when you add soy, ginger, chilli and say prawns they are quite tasty. I got mine in Morrisons and they are called zero noodles. Night all.

Well done on your FDs, Soupey, Granny, Lula
Wow, we had a lot of Monday fasters !

5:2 provides at least 2 booze-free days per week, Soupey which is good for your liver and general health.

re tomorrow: I suggest you either increase portion size or add something else nutritious
e.g. add almonds to your porridge, a pud of Greek yoghurt & berries, or pnut butter & a banana on a slice of wholegrain toast

NEVER add junk to make up calories