5:2 Thread No. 59: Oh the weather outside is frightful. But the fasting is so delightful. And since we've no place to go, let's jump back in the 5:2 flow !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal
Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
===================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello, newbie here. I'm not even a mum but someone told me this is the best 5:2 forum and I've been reading it and so I hope you don't mind me jumping in.

I started researching 5:2 about a week ago and did my first FD yesterday. I was really apprehensive as I LIKE my food and I know I get really cranky without it. If I miss a meal I often feel really shaky and faint. Intellectually I knew this was due to insulin spikes and as long as I didn't eat refined carbs it'd be fine to fast but I had to get over a big mental barrier.

In the end I managed it and I feel really proud of myself :). I ate brunch (two boiled eggs and a slice of toast) and a bowl of porridge with cinnamon (my favourite) and a few cashew nuts late evening. I was really worried about waking up in the night feeling hungry and not sleeping again, so I delayed the evening meal to about 8.30pm. I found that I got very hungry between the two meals but not shaky or faint, and I could manage it by drinking herbal tea and chewing some sugar free gum.

The porridge in the evening felt like a huge blessing, I was really grateful for it and that reminded me how much I normally take food for granted. I actually said grace over it, which I never normally bother with, and a prayer for people who don't have a choice whether to eat or not. I then ate it very slowly and it kept me filled up all night. I did wake in the middle of the night with a raging thirst, but wasn't hungry, so I just drank some water. I was amazed that when I woke up properly I felt fine, in fact better than I normally do in the mornings. Brain was a bit fuzzy but physically I felt strong and not-bloated which was marvellous. Breakfast this morning (two slices of toast with marmite, and some yoghurt) has never tasted so good, though!

I am 5'6 and weigh 12 st 9, so I could do with losing at least a couple of stone. There's also a family history of heart disease and breast cancer, and before Christmas I had a breast cancer scare (luckily it was just a cyst... Phew) which was a bit of a wake up call. I'm 36 and have worked out that, while I've never been slim, I've been gaining steadily the past few years and it's really time to stop that and reverse it if possible.

Anyway, Monday will be the next FD I think.

Good morning all and thank you for the welcome. My first few days have gone well. The fast was easy, though I did feel a bit rough the next day. That could just be down to a persistent cough I've had niggling at me for a while now. The two NFDs I've been in my calorie limit, though I've not eaten as well as I would have liked. I have had two very busy and stressful days at work though, so I'll try to be gentler on myself. Today I was planning an a second FD as I'm working the evening shift, but my dd is back today from a few days away, and dh wants to come with me to collect her so we can grab a few hours out together. This time is infrequent so I'm grabbing it with both hands, but it always means food. I saw somewhere on her something about mini-fasts. if I add 2 days at 1000 cal instead of one at 500, the deficient is the same. Are there till health benefits?

Twinmama - I had a fitbit zip which I loved, but it fell off loads. The first got run over in a car park, but to be fair fitbit replaced it, and then it fell off a number of other times. The safest way to wear it was attached to my bra facing inwards, though they don't recommend that there is direct skin contact. I kind of gave up with it after a while. I've just started wearing the jawbone Up Move which is a similar thing, but it has a grippier clip. I can't say how accurate it is though. Yesterday in work my dsis, wearing a wristband fitbit, hit 10000 steps much earlier than I did with my move clipped to my bra, and we did about the same (same job role, same shift, both of us on our feet all day). Either her's is over counting, mine is under counting or she was secretly up and down the stairs when I wasn't watching. I realise this probably hasn't helped at all .

A big welcome to the newbies cheese, wine, olives
(together you sound like a tasty platter)

Main tips:

• NO snacking even on NFDs
• Drink lots of water
• FDs should be free of alcohol and sugary junk
• Try to stay within NHS alcohol limits on NFDs too
• For all FD meals, concentrate on protein with masses of veg, e.g. curry, stew, stirfry, chunky soup.

Some folk have lost several stone on these 5:2 threads, cheese
You should find you lose quite quickly from that BMI.

I recommend you break down your journey into lots of interim goals of say 5kg and we'll celebrate with you getting below each stone marker etc
The first major milestone is to get below BMI 40, then the next BMI bands.

IF (Intermittent Fasting) is good at burning abdominal fat, so after a few weeks you should notice the change in how you feel and e.g. how you can climb stairs more easily. Also, your clothes size dropping.

Well done on your 1st FD, olives
We're all sorts here, all sizes and ages, vegans & low carbers & omnivores.
I've no kids either and I'm post-meno; breadandwine is a bloke in his 70s

Some of us here are maintaining and came to 5:2 for the health benefits of fasting, rather than weight.
Fast days often help us appreciate food more and can help develop healthier longterm habits.

I recommend you start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking, especially on FDs, because the smaller amount of food provides less moisture.

wine most folk find it easier to have just black coffee / tea for FD breakfast and then have lunch & supper on FDs, or just a 500 cal supper.
Definitely avoid snacks in between, because they just make you hungrier.

If you prefer to have breakfast, then maybe a boiled egg with a raw tomato, no bread. No sugary cereals or fruit juice, but veg juice is ok.
Many folk find it easier to leave starches and fruit for the 5 NFDs.
The OP has links to many FD recipe and meal ideas in the "HOW TO START" section.

Thanks bigchoc am on my second glass of lemon and water, doing ok so far!

Well done on your 1st FDs, Mimia
Don't worry about changing your habits too much on NFDs. Many of us find we automatically start to eat more healthily after a few weeks.

This WOE is flexible, so while your DD is visiting it's fine to substitute 2 mini-FDs for an FD, if that makes life easier. There would still be health benefits from those sub-1000 days.

wine I used to be terrified of not having breakfast. It's how I was brought up and then all the 'most important meal of the day' talk that's banded about. But I have to tell you that if you're not a growing child it is nonsense. I have some of my most alert and productive days on a fast day. Honestly, it's all about undoing lifelong habits and myths. What helped me is just missing the cue for breakfast or any meal. So instead of coming downstairs and putting the kettle on, I do things in a different order and miss that 'eat now!' cue and once i'm past it my body doesn't expect anything until the next mealtime. Good luck, you CAN do it.

Help on FDs and only 10 cals: a teasp of Marmite from the jar, or a hot Bovril

Fitbits, Gadgets
All gadgets that claim to measure steps or exercise calories have some inaccuracy.
Especially so for those which try to measure / guess body movements, because sensors and software algorithms can't totally model everyday life of humans.
I've read 15 % error in studies wrt steps. May be higher errors wrt calories, e.g. some give total calories rather than net calories (subtract calories you burn just by being alive)
Also, many folk can't calibrate or fit gadgets properly.
Use gadgets if they help, but don't stress about it.

Morning, all!

Nice to see we've been joined by some new friends!

You've certainly come to the right place. I've been here for over 3 years now, and this WOL - along with all the fitness advice given freely by BC - is allowing me to stay in good shape for when I get old!

The main thing I've gained from IF, I think, is the extra energy I have. Only a couple of months in I suddenly found myself skipping towards my car carrying 2 heavy shopping bags!

I feel much better this morning - don't mind a cold when it comes and goes in about 36 hours.

I'm still in bed, though, been listening to the cricket since 8.30.

Doing well on the 16:8 front - eating late at night is my downfall, but I've just strung 2 together to start the new year.

Olives, before 5:2 I used to get ratty if a meal was delayed, but that disappeared fairly quickly, and now I'm absolutely zen about food.

Just remembered, if we were going out to dinner, not knowing just when we would eat, I'd munch on a couple of digestives to prevent any crankiness developing!

Interesting changes to the public health advice on alcohol intake in the papers this morning. I've decided to go alcohol free during the week and only drink on the weekends - and then only a pint or so and a glass of wine. This is down from this much each day not so long ago.

Morning all,

going in for the first FD of 2016 today, and just had water so far which is feeling wonderful - after a week of snotty / coughy mess, I've felt constantly dehydrated (probably due to the sheer volume of mucous I've produced ) so now I'm starting to improve its nice to just focus on that water at the moment.

Right now I'm not hungry at all, so not sure if I'll have lunch or just wait until dinner time... if I do have lunch it will be a mini one egg omelette... if I don't - then it might be a big one tonight with a load of salad too - mmmmmmm

Cheese - when I started in September my BMI was 42.4 so not far off where you are now, I'm now at 36.3 and am due to break the next stone barrier soon and fingers crossed will go under the next BMI range (so Obese Class II to Obese) sometime soon too - It is definitely possible to lose a fair whack pretty quickly, concentrate on drinking plenty of water all the time, but especially on FDs

Welcome to all the other newbies, looking forward to getting to know you all

Hello

Going to do my first planned FD on Monday. Though I have had a horrid tummy bug over new year, so had 2 FD's through not being able to eat anything. I am now under my pre Christmas weight.

I started the 5:2 at 11.12 at the start of December. I am now 11.02. Would like to get under 11 by next week. I would be delighted if I could get back under 10st by Easter.

Happy New year everyone.

Hello all. Haven't read the thread, but checking in to get back to normal. Woken with a bit if a cold threatening so going to give my planned gym session a miss and hopefully I'll be OK for tomorrow morning. Also planning FDs tomorrow, Wed and Fri this week to kick start things a bit.

Good luck Saturday fasters!

Thanks for the great advice bigchoc and oohmr you're giving me some much needed inspiration to start.

My first day and weigh in is going to be Monday 4th and I'm going to do it 7/7 and aim for nothing until lunchtime for a 100kcal meal then save 400kcal for 7pm dinner. That is the plan!

Does anyone have any knowledge of using low GI recipes with fasting day meals? I think this might help lessen my impending type 2 diabetes threat...

Just dropping by to mark my place and say hi and happy new year to everyone.

Am doing 16:8 today and tomorrow, back to full 5:2 routine starting Monday. Think I have become addicted to sugar over December so the rest of January is officially no confectionary month for me. That should also effectively cut out my snacking and get me back into good habits again.

Welcome back, everyone.

Lots of nasty bugs around, so if you feel ill or have a temperature, don't push yourself to fast - or to eat.
Just listen to your bod, drink water, eat nourishing food within TDEE, no booze or sugary junk, until you feel ok.
Too ill to fast means too ill for booze

Also, anyone who has had a recent stomach bug, I recommend you wait at least a full week after the last symptoms, before fasting, because your stomach is still in recovery - some folk have found fasting too early can retart symptoms.

Cheese 5:2, in combination with a sensible lifestyle, can help metabolic problems, like insulin metabolism issues, PCOS etc
In particular, it is good at reducing central obesity caused by hormonal issues. So, I suggest you monitor your waist, not just weight.

I recommend that FDs be healthy low GI for everyone, not just those at risk of T2.
For NFDs, if you are possibly pre-T2, you would probably do well on low GI Mediteranean, replacing simple starches with complex e.g.

• quinoa, brown rice, wholegrain bread, sweet pots to replace white rice, white bread, pasta, pizza
• lots of veg, beans, lentils, some oily fish
• whole fruit instead of juice
• minimising added sugar, sugary junk and booze

In the OP section at the end "Scientific Evidence for Fasting" I link to a lot of peer-reviewed research in reputable journals about possible health benefits, including for T2

Well Happy New Year to everyone
Had a quiet new year and yesterday was meant to be a quiet new year until my brother, mum his friend, my MIL and her boyfriend turned up so ended up a bit of an event :) Nice to spend the day with people. Had a bit at the buffet but then felt full after that the whole day so didnt really eat much of anything else. Had a bit of a buffet lunch to finish things off and that was that. Going to try and eat a bit lighter tomorrow but always difficult when i know there is a fast day ahead of me. Sometimes it just seems to much of a punishment to dole on to myself on a day i dont need to.
Need to get my act together to make some nice things for FD. Getting a bit bored of omlette and hate hate hate ready meals.
Goodluck all fasters for today :)

Great to see some new people joining - welcome!

I'm doing a fast day tomorrow and the. Back into a proper 5:2 pattern next week. I'm looking forward to a break from the sheer amount of food eaten over the last week! Not been too disciplined and treated it like a holiday.

Cheers bigchoc I will have a look at your links when I get the time.

I think I can quite easily switch from white to wholemeal bread, pasta as well just need to remember to actually buy the other stuff instead. It's the sugary snacks and cakes that are definitely my downfall on NFDs.

Pixie Tomorow's NFD, I think you would do better to aim for TDEE, rather than compensating for any holiday indulgence.
For the next few weeks, try to avoid going much over or under TDEE, so you just have to nail FDs.
Plenty of FD recipe links in the Resources subsection of "How to Start" in the OP. The BBC 5:2 Good Food site is especially tasty.

Kitchen closed on 460 calories and a lake of water

It feels good to be back! I also went for a single meal as I wasn't doing much today so am stuffed right now!!

Hope any other saturday fasters had a good one, I now have 6 weeks involving 3 birthdays (both DC and me) so trying to make sure I stay on track again.

Happy new year, 5-2ers!!
Have had a fairly indulgent xmas, food wise so not looking forward to the big weigh in tomorrow.

Having a TDEE today and did Park run this morning.

Was going to wait till Monday for my first fast, but think I'll bring it forward to tomorrow so I'm not doing it on my first day back at work. Is it weird I'm quite looking forward to it?

cheese and everyone else:
NO snacking on FDs or NFDs.
Eat meals, preferably at least 4 hours apart, no calories in between, just water / herbal tea / black coffee

Currently having a cup of peppermint tea and meal planning for the coming week, fast days planned to be Tuesday and Thursday, was thinking of having a simple salad (no dressing) and a good for you ready meal on these days?

Also just wanted to say how fab I think BigChocFrenzy lots of advice and support for everyone here