5:2 Thread No. 59: Oh the weather outside is frightful. But the fasting is so delightful. And since we've no place to go, let's jump back in the 5:2 flow !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal
Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
===================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Try this Festive Booze Calculator to find your "drinking nationality" - I'm apparently a Kuwaiti !

Thanks for your support yesterday, got through the FD stollen mini free and rescued by in-laws turning up, OH forgot he wanted wine o'clock by the time he restrained himself from strangling his mother.
I've done the alcohol test, I'm italian,. But might move country's tonight.

Morning well done to yesterday's Fasters and good luck to today's Fasters.

I was at 600 for FD yesterday and then we got a call that one my husbands uncle had been taken to hospital with a mini heart attack and waiting up for news I caved and had pitta and housemaid so it ended on 815.

Bit of a shock as his only 53 one of his arteries had blocked up and he had to have a stent put in, should find out more today but they think is other arterie looks a bit dodgey and they may need to do more.

I think it's given my dp a bit of a wake up call health wise as they are both large men, his always talking about what we will do when the kids move out but I think this has reminded him that unless you look after yourself you may not necessarily get there!

I know a lot of people say to enjoy life and live it to the full, my husbands thinking but I'd rather be around longer to see so much more.

BigChoc you are so right about comparing it to other years. By now i'd have probably eaten the equivalent of multiple tubs of mini chocolates "because its Christmas". It's so nice that I feel just as much in the holiday spirit even though I'm being a bit more restrained!

Having said that, this week's been a bit all over the place... Successful FD Monday, followed by Office Xmas meal Tuesday landing me 500kcals over TDEE. Weds the hangover nearly sent me over TDEE thanks to 6 mini Fudge bars from the Heroes tin . I managed to reign it in by basically having a FD sized dinner and kept within TDEE. Quite gratifying as in the past I'd have gone all out and had a big dinner anyway, sending me miles over!

Successful FD yesterday. Will try and have a mini FD today to cancel out the calories from Tuesday; planning a FD sized 250kcal lunch.

Just done the booze calculator - even with the Xmas do damage, I did quite well - the benefits of being a lightweight and considering 5 bottles of cider to be a heavy night!

Sorry to hear that, Lottie That sort of illness happening relatively early to relatives is often a scary wakeup call.
Maybe your DP will join you on 5:2.

It is much more difficult to enjoy life and family with premature poor health. Sometimes that just can't be avoided, but lifestyle changes can improve our chances - most maintainers here are aiming to improve our quality of life now and in later years.

Oh no Lottie i'm sorry to hear that about your DH's uncle - fingers crossed for good news today.

According to BigChocs calculator, I'm Andorran . Whoops.
But its the only sugar I consume

Just saw this in active and popped in to have a look. Been doing my version of 5:2 for well over a year now. My weight had been rising, i always say i won't buy a bigger dress size but i was bursting out and starting to look like a bodybuilder again. I usually go up and down a bit with the seasons but just couldn't get motivated this time.

Then tried 5:2 and lost the extray half stone or so i was carring and have found it much easier to more ir less maintain my weight this past year and more.

Just curious though, does anyone else struggle with the 500 calories? I inagine mines is more around the 600-700 mark. I also don't follow it religiously - but dip in and out when i feel like it or i start gaining.

Will be popping in and out of the thread for some support and ideas - like the recipe link i found.

Welcome, Bambam

600-700 cal FDs would still bring fasting benefits and if you can lose / maintain weight like that, no problem.
You have a sensible maintenance plan: to return whenever you gain more than say 4 lb.
This WOE is flexible enough so we can each develop a system that works for us and is sustainable longterm.

My FDs have often been 650, maybe because I exercise intensely and have a high TDEE for my age.
Someone with a 1500 TDEE might notice weight loss slows unless they manage 500 FDs - the original idea was 25% TDEE, but 500 seems to work in practice for nearly all women, 600 for blokes.

Sorry to hear that Lottie it must be a terrible shock for you all.

No loss for me this week, which is a shame because I've been pretty bang on. I did have a big loss last week though so can't really complain.

The beige buffet that was saved for me isn't looking anywhere near as appealing today. I will have a couple of bits with my lunch (homemade spinach and feta muffins look good) but I'm feeling very pleased I resisted.

Does anyone else feel on top of the world the morning after a fast day? I feel great, strong and disciplined and light as a feather - it's my favourite bit of the week.

Plan for the day is yogurt and fruit in the next hour, salad and bits for lunch then a lentil curry for dinner.

Hope everyone has a good day.

Thanks Bigchoc for the welcome!

It just really wirks for me. No mire guilt and shame for having a treat or going out for a slap up meal and drinks, or away for thee weekend etc. I think in the past when i tried to restrict my calirie intake to 1000-1500 every day - it just was depressing and a set up for a fail and the self loathing that come with it. I also often enjoy my fast days, feels clean and healthy.

Sorry to hear about your relative, Lottie.

My chances of getting a heart attack in the next ten years are put at 21% - which sounds high, until you realise that the over-70s get an automatic 20%!

It's this WOL that allows me to live my life to the full!

Haven't yet fasted this week - and ate late last night, so I won't be doing the full 24hr LOF I usually do. Instead I'll just go sub 600 cals for dinner. might even replicate my

Hi, I hope you don't mind me joining in but I'm feeling really down right now and need to do something!
I have PCOS and I'm on the depo injection. My weight had been slowly climbing for a year. For around 8 weeks now I've been calorie counting with MFP and have been averaging 1300-1500 calories a day. I went for my depo yesterday and I've put weight on!
The nurse was quite harsh with me and warned me about diabetes, infertility etc. She suggested 5:2. I don't really know where to start! I've dropped my calorie intake already, how much more should I drop it by?
Any help would be great.

Hi mrsfizzy a new face again.

On the opening page there's instructions.
First work out your tdee set at sedentary. follow the link, That will give you the NFD amount (non fast day) calories. Use these, but try not to snack, stick to meals.
On a fast day FD eat approximately 500 calories, drink lots of water no junk or sweet stuff. And when your having a shite or good day come and tell us.
It does work. I have thyroid issues and I've lost 10lb, so far.xx

Yes lulu I love the morning after a FD too, even though I don't pig out on NFD it's just nice to not think too much about food on those days. After my FDs this week I'm maintaining my target of 9st 4 for the last 2 weeks. Would like to get a bit lower but will be happy to maintain over the festive period. It's totm so might actually be lower and not showing yet. I was super strict yesterday, only 1 meal of 2 egg shakshouka yesterday followed by Greek yoghurt with blueberries and a teaspoon of lemon curd( this combination is delish btw)
NSV though, hips are now nearly 2 inches smaller and don't seem to have lost from my bust which is always a bonus for those of us with a modest bosom

Hi Mrsfizzy, I also have PCOS and have found 5:2 has helped. My weight loss is slow but I'm within normal bmi. My last few periods have consistently come in under 35 days which hasn't happened in years!
The sugar highs and lows and associated mood swings have also pretty much gone.
This is a great group to help you stay motivated and supported.

Welcome, MrsFizzy You've come to the right place for friendly support

Fasting often helps sort out hormonal / metabolic problems like PCOS, as several have found on these 5:2 threads.
They lose weight, even if more slowly than others on 5:2

Read the "How to Start" section of the OP, but main tips:

• NO snacking, ever
  Keep at least 4 hrs between meals and eat any treats as part of a meal

• Start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking plenty

• Choose any 2 (non-consecutive) days when you'll be busy (preferably not with food) and plan out your FD meals in advance, the day before.
  No junk or booze on FDs, just a total of 500 cals
  For FDs, concentrate on protein and veg, e.g. soup / stirfry / curry.

• On NFDs, eat normal food to within your sedentary TDEE
  Try to stay within NHS recommended alcohol limits

Well done on your inches NSV and on maintaining, lovemyway
< waves to Andorran tip from my virtuous Kuwait (Festive booze calc) >

Well, my curry came in at 240 cals for the whole pot – measured out at 10 serving spoons. I had 4 spoonfuls, so I’ll be going 36 hours – ‘til tomorrow lunchtime - on less than 100 cals!

On the booze front, I’m apparently a Macedonian – 86th on the national drinking table.

I think we should all take this test again a couple of days after Xmas – I know I for one will be much higher up the list!

Just read the thread to find out what the hell your'e all talking about and feeling slightly smug, though not as smug as bigchoc,to be hailing from Chad this week , but yes B&W i'd better redo on Sunday night.

Well just made it to the end of my Mon-Fri ADF, wasn't easy but worth it. The 3rd FD was actually the easiest. What really helped was spending the mornings on housework with baby boy on my back, and an afternoon trip to Starbucks - well worth the 92 cals for a soy cappuccino.

Now 3.4kg down in 3 weeks, yey!

Wow! Well done Dontbeblue you're hardcore!

Went out with my work team yesterday.
Food intake was reasonable. Alcohol was another matter.
Was going to get a taxi this evening when we go out. Think I'll drive and stick to water instead

Welcome newcomers : these threads are a very welcoming and supportive place.
In part because several of us stopped losing weight years ago but still fast for the health reasons alone.
Which is why its such a sustainable Way of Eating

Final session with my PT today. It's definitely helped me get over my plateau, having been stuck around 10st for months.

I'm 9st 8lb this morning!!! Lowest ever adult weight and a good buffer before Christmas festivities .

She redid my measurements and I was particularly pleased with losing 4 cm from my waist and 2 1/2 cm from each thigh.

I'm not sure I want to get any smaller to be honest. Perhaps I just need to adjust? I know I want to continue to build muscle. It feels great to be coming towards the turn of the year and feel so pleased with what I've achieved in 2015. More of the same for 2016!