5:2 Thread number 56: Calories are tiny imps who live in your wardrobe and sew your clothes a bit tighter every week. Join us to renew your wardrobe

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had EDs you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

It's an interesting point about your body knowing it's limits. I won't fast now for two weeks on hols and I fully expect to gain so will fast twice a week when I get back until I get back to where I am now.

But based on progress so far, if I carried on now I would lose more I think and I don't think I that would necessarily be healthy for me. I have lost 8/9 pounds and it has come off my waist (fab) and my boobs (not so fab). Dh has commented that I would look too skinny if I lost more, although I am very happy with what I am now.

I will see what happens on hols, and once I am back to here, will think about one FD a week, or maybe one a fortnight.

TiP I was thinking that too about it being easy to lose still. Although I'm already at my lowest adult weight so it will be uncharted territory, as it were. We'll see. I remember reading 5:2 has helped many get to a lower weight than anything else?

Stripy snap, I have never weighed this as an adult either....

Thanks stripy, Errol, Talkin, next time I'll try to not eat till evening.
Now (some tomatoes and a bit of cottage cheese eaten too) I am left with 300 kJ for diner . still hungry and nothing to look forward:-(

Errol
Yup, fab holiday. I would recommend the Dalmatian Coastal islands of Croatia to anybody.

Blossom / stripy
Once you get lighter, the next stage is to really tone up and see how your body feels with lower body fat and denser muscle.

With a bit of effort I can get down to just under BMI 20 - at which stage I have no bulgy bits around my tummy and hips - but its hard work so saved for special events.

Lean lightly muscled bodies look a lot better than thin untoned bodies - and toning upper body makes middle aged boobs perkier again even when there is not much left of them

mrscoyote
Veg stir fry : julienne 1 carrot, 1 small courgette, 1 pepper, 1 onion, 6 mushrooms - steam fry in 1/2 teaspoon oil mixed with 1/2 teaspoon soy sauce, stir in a bit of chilli
if you have any frozen prawns, add about 8 of them at the last minute

around 300 calories and you'll be STUFFED when you finish.

Or if you've got some red lentils, a tin each of tomatoes and coconut milk, an onion and some spices, you can have a big dollop of very tasty dahl with a pile of whatever veg you've got. Or one of B&Ws veg curries... go over to the recipe thread, you'll probably find something you can make from whatever you've got in your house.

Talkin, Errol - unfortunately I count in kJ (not cal) so I can have some carrot or letuce or something like it, not a stir fry today (less than 100cal left).

I am but also stubborn, so I will not exceed the FD limit.
Lesson learnt:-(

Mrscoyote
allow yourself the extra 50 calories and eat well so that you sleep well
these pictures are great for choosing which foods will fill your tummy for least :
www.wisegeek.com/what-does-200-calories-look-like.htm

if you just have steamed chilli veg, you can have quite a lot

Goals
Increasing your % muscle and / or reducing your % body fat lowers the risk of death from all causes LowerRiskMuscle

Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve"BendAge

Many folk fixate on the scales and overlook the importance of building muscle.
So, if you are getting quite lean, like Strip, Blossom then get lifting decent weights and do full pressups

My FD standbys:

A teasp of Marmite (10 cals) helps if you get hunger pangs, headaches or feel a bit weak.

A small tin of tuna drained (in brine, not oil) with salt & vinegar is very satisfying protein for 60 cals.

A long red pepper (50 cals) is packed with antioxidants and is mildly sweet, but doesn't spike insulin like fruit would

Mrscoyote I'm another one who waits till evening on a FD for my meal. If I ate at lunch I'd probably end up picking at food all day so you've shown a lot more willpower than I could! I've just finished my 3rd FD of the week. Had a big bowl of vegetable casserole with two tablespoons of tzatziki on top, a quorn peppered steak, asparagus and a slice of cheesy garlic bread. Came in at 496 calories and was ridiculously delicious and filling! I'm going to have a relaxed weekend enjoying good food and weigh in again Monday. Hope everyone has a good weekend, or holiday to those off on their travels!

Will deffo look to tone upper body. Need to get the triathlon out the way first, any time I get to exercise between now and then will be spent on that. I also have a dodgy upper arm muscle complaint which stops me lifting too much weight or doing press ups unfortunately. Waiting for my new job's medical cover kicks in before getting it sorted.

Had my contraceptive injection today - the nurse asked me if I was very fit, as my blood pressure was "record breakingingly low, pulse extremely slow and you are tiny"....rather gratifying.

Accidental mini-fast today - didn't have breakfast as I was running late for the doctors, then didn't eat lunch until 3pm as a friend was meeting me but got stuck in traffic and then i wasn't hungry until just now so had a sandwich and some fruit.
I'll have a hot chocolate but Im on 1000 calories with no real restraints today so I'll take that!

Welcome, Pipperoo

I recommend you regard weight loss as a process over several weeks (several months if you've a few stone to lose), during which you also learn better eating & drinking habits, which you'll need later for maintenance.

5:2 trains you to eat to TDEE on NFDs, while obtaining the calorie deficit via FDs. So, when you reach the correct weight you have the tools to maintain.

That's a very good day, Holy You've learned not to be scared of a few hours without food when you are very busy. Then when food was available you ate sensibly and stopped when no longer hungry.
That's how a lean person behaves.

Great week so far two mini fd ( one unexpected- much like holy) and two fd nailed- all in readiness for a buffet and wine tomorrow.

Piper- I'm new to 5:2, and whilst can't guarantee, I really see this as a forever 'diet'. I think if you keep at it and approach it in a flexible way, tailored to you, you'll find it is sustainable. I have.

As big choc says it so quickly adjusts your eating habits, nfd most importantly I think. I'm on a nfd today and have struggled to hit tdee. It's become a mini fd inadvertently. Because I'm not eating mindlessly anymore. Plus I suspect my appetite has drastically reduced ( I left food on a plate today- this is a first!)

Not to worry, BC!

I was only half serious!

I am in awe of all of you who manage to maintain this diet beyond a few weeks.

Hi Pipparoo

I can tell you in one word what keeps me IFing - control! This WOL gives me control over my weight - as long as I control what I put in my mouth!

Through these threads I've learned all the tricks and tips which allow me to be the glutton I really am - just not on every day of the week!

I seem to have hit a plateau and wonder if anyony can suggest how i might get over it. I started this woe 10 weeks ago and have lost 12lbs but I have only lost 1lb in the last 4 weeks. I have tried adding in extra fast days but it doesn't seem make a difference.

Cheesy a pound a week on average is the rate of loss most experience but it doesn't mean you'll lose exactly that every week. It also depends on how much you have to lose, if already within healthy BMI it will be slower.

When I've noticed my rate of loss slowed down, it was mainly down to NFDs. Are you eating a lot of white carbs? Sugar? Do you snack? If you're not tracking NFD calories it's worth doing for a few days at least.

Cheesetoasty The first thing to do is to examine your NFDs, which are the usual cause for this.

Do you mfp ? If not, start today and do so for at least a full week. If you normally just estimate, weigh food exactly for this trial period. Don't forget calories for alcohol etc
Also, recalculate your TDEE to sedentary for your current weight.
Now, over the next week, see if you are eating back the FD calorie deficit on the NFDs.

If you exercise, you should NOT be eating back exercise cals, FDs or NFDs, because these are usually overestimated.
Later, when you start losing again, you can incorporate your activity level into your TDEE if you feel hungry on NFDs, but do check their definitions of "active" etc which are higher than most folk think.

Also, keep monitoring inches, because 5:2 tends to improve body composition even without increased exercise - and fat weighs more than the same volume of lean mass.

And as Stripy says, if you are now within healthy BMI, your loss may just have naturally slowed down to the rate your body is happy with.

Thanks for the advice. I do really hate counting calories lol but will give it a go. I also don't think I am drinking enough water and seem to be a bit constipated sorry tmi.

Many folk have been seriously shocked by their intake, after they mfped for a trial period.
It will help you identify regular calorie bombs, typically over-indulgence in "treats": coffee shop muffin or cookie can be 500+ and drink 3-400, booze.
Or your problem may be portion size.

What also helps is cutting out snacking.