5:2 Thread number 56: Calories are tiny imps who live in your wardrobe and sew your clothes a bit tighter every week. Join us to renew your wardrobe

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had EDs you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Prepare in advance on a nice tray all that you are going to have, then do NOT go back into the fridge for any more carbs

Ok I'm going for it [smiles]

thanks for the seal of approval - will follow your tips and enjoy it !!

Dotty I will join you in your teenage woes I have a 13 yr old daughter and a 20 year old son who acts like his still 15 whenever his home (he needs to get back to uni sharpish summer hols are too long) needless to say I went over yesterday and today they've all been rucking it's driving me mad!

I'm managing with FD ok I usually come in around 550 but my NFD I keep coming in at at 1600 1700 (tdee is 1530) with random snacking in the evening little bits here and there that are adding up like crispbreads and houmous need to try and get back on track

FD tomorrow here's hoping for a quick and easy one without screaming teens

Lottie No snacking at all because one snack leads to another ...

Hi all
I can't seem to get started on this eating plan. I didn't even count calories today and I ate a load of biscuits I didn't even want just to spite myself. I am afraid to start properly because I'm afraid to fail again and end up back at an unhappy weight like I am now. I don't feel like I can even take the first step and I'm ashamed of myself. I hope you don't mind me unloading this here on you guys. I think my poor OH has heard this from me a million times!
Can I ask what motivated you guys to get started?what was your kick up the bum?? And how do you defeat the voice telling you to give up and eat that cream cake?!
Sorry for the bad vibes. Feeling emotional. PMS
Thanks in advance

Maddy Some ideas:

Think of the positive reasons to lose weight - carrot not stick - and write a list.
Stick your list on the fridge and on any food cupboard.

Decide on your 1st milestone to aim for, say to lose 5lb, rather than looking at the full amount of weight you have to lose.

Take the first step. Only you can do this for yourself.

Stock up on food that is nourishing, but tasty. Spices are helpful here.

Stop buying junk. Throw it all out, so you don't get tempted.
Any family member who wants junk can enjoy this outside the house, when you are not around.

Drink plenty of water. Start the day with a glass.
Stop snacking / grazing.
Eat proper meals and have any planned "treat" as your pud.
Go low GI: plenty of protein, complex carbs, some fat.
Cut right down on added sugar

Just go for it, but take it one day at a time.
Choose a day to fast, then plan and calorie count in advance and go for it.
Stick to the FD meal plan - no impulse changes.
You could ease your way into fasting: say week 1, FDs are 1000 cals, then week 2 they are 900 cals etc

A good mantra for FDs: You can have it tomorrow

Each NFD, days, just eat sensibly. If that is tough, roughly plan your meals the day before. Stick to the plan.

Oh, Maddy!

Have a non-mumsnet [hug]!

You can do this!

My initial inspiration to begin IF was two articles in February 2012 about the role of 5:2 in reducing your chances of getting prostate cancer. As a 74-year-old bloke, I sat up and took notice.

I began by halving my cals on two days a week (I thought 600 calories was too extreme) and I immediately began to lose weight-albeit a bit slowly.
But I immediately started to feel more alert and alive-and I've been fasting every week since then. Going down to 600 cals after I saw Mike Mosley's Horizon programme. And I would urge you to watch that as soon as you can - I've seen it at least four times and I've been re-inspired every time.
Read the Tips and Links thread
When you're fasting keep repeating to yourself 'I'm in the zone'! And, 'I can have it tomorrow!'
When you've had your allotted cals, nail a sign on the kitchen door: 'The kitchen is closed'
If you do decide to treat yourself, have something small and savoury to hand to short-circuit the sweet taste in your mouth.
Have a look on the 5:2 recipe thread at some of the low-cal veg curries on there-you can get a mountain of veg with a few carbs for 500 cals.

Good luck! You can do this!

Morning all

When this thread is filled up (1000 posts)

We have a new 5:2/IF Thread #57

Hi Maddy

I can relate to feeling low around totm so never mind about unloading. It's very difficult when you have tried and failed many times before, to try again but you really will be amazed at how easy you will find it.

I'm fasting today so why not join me?
This morning hold out eating for as long as you can, first of all see how you feel waiting until 10 am before you think about breakfast and then see at 10 if you can hold out to 12. Drink lots of coffee/tea as you would usually but set yourself those little time brackets where you decide you will not eat yet.

My motivation is really about my health, I'm horribly overweight at the moment and appallingly unfit. I've hit 40 and I have a herniated disk as well as existing back problems which mean I have spasms and sciatica and if I don't sort out my health/weight its only going to deteriorate.
I suppose the same can be said for everyone, even if they don't have problems at the moment, not maintaining health and fitness as we get older is going to lead to problems which will affect our quality of life in old age.

Are you fasting with me? What have you got to lose by giving it a go?

Thank you so much BigChocFrenzy for your kind words and wisdom, and thanks Breadandwine for sharing your story and advice with me!
And sorry again for moaning - hormones, combined with residual sinus pain from the cold I have just got over, making everything seem worse.
What a lovely supportive group. I will be reading and re reading your posts all day :)

My motivation is my 2 year old - I don't want her to grow up with an unhealthy attitude to food. And I want to be the best version of myself for her. And I want half the clothes in my wardrobe to fit me again!

Thanks CainInThePunting and YES! I could really use a FD buddy!!! I am having a cuppa now but haven't eaten anything so I just need to log the milk in my tea into MFP.

Morning all - FD here and on my second pint of water already!

That camembert last night was delicious - I had two raw carrots sliced to dip, and I did the 2 slices of wholemeal toast as per bigchocs recommendation - but only ate half of it... It was nice to enjoy a camembert and know that it wasn't an awful meal choice - it was cheese, raw veggies and a slice of wholemeal toast- a random meal maybe, but not the carb fest it would have been a month ago!!

Maddy - you poor thing, its hard when your head isn't in the game isn't it! I attempted 5:2 a couple of years ago and didn't make it through the first day! My inspiration this time is my divorce nearing completion - I decided this year I was going to start making myself happy. I started with little things like regular hair cuts, and eyebrow threading, and a few weeks back something just clicked! My sister is giving 5:2 a go as well and another friend mentioned it - it kind of felt like a sign. This was at about 10 am on a Tuesday - so I decided to wing it and try a fast day! I didn't have the most suitable stuff in so it was a bit of a botch day - but so far the system is definitely working for me.
I think something has changed in my brain - I'm trying new foods, eating much better (no dominos pizza for 2 weeks!!) and feeling like 'me' again. I think hope my mind is letting go of all the shit and allowing me to get back to the person I was before my STBXH ruined my self esteem!

Hugs Maddy.

Another mantra you might like to try is "I know what that cream cake tastes like. I have had one before, and I will have one again at some point. I don't have to have it now." That works for me anyway.

I am fasting today too, so we can do it all together? I have had a pint of water, a pint of Berocca, a big cup of tea with a splash of milk and a big cup of black coffee. Just about to have another.

I will fast until about 6.30pm and then have a huge tuna salad, with two boiled eggs, celery, lettuce, capers, olives, cherry toms, radishes, cucumber, and then a 0% greek yoghurt with blueberries and pumpkin seeds, and then a 10 cal jelly if I feel like it. Then an options hot choc about 8. fast? What fast?

You can do this. Don't look at the WOE stretching ahead of you with loads of fast days to face, just take one fast day at a time, and pat yourself on the back each time you manage one.

Morning all, and thanks for the support / empathy re. the teenagers thing s

Got through yesterday with no arguments and just a fairly minor "conversation" when he was drifting aimlessly around a school career's evening.

FD today and my stomach is growling already. Could prove a challenge!

Another thought Maddy - are you drinking enough water? I ask for 2 reasons...

• Our bodies often mix up signals and we think we are hungry when in fact we need a drink
• On a fast day, you don't get as much water from food as a NFD so need to drink extra to make up for it.

I always conciously drink more on a FD - and if I start to feel peckish, make sure I have a drink quickly. I tend to have a small lunch of soup or something - with a slice of bread if I need it, and something along the lines of an omelette (new for me!) or seasoned chicken with loads of veg at dinner... I also save a few calories for an options hot choc if I want one

Great stuff! Good luck team fast!

Maddy when I first considered this eating plan I was dubious I could actually fast without fainting so I had a test week I went as long as I could with no food till lunch then ate normally for the rest of the day (lunch and dinner) it was quite insightful when I realised I wasn't going to faint that the hunger feeling can pass quite quick.

I also tested the best way to do my fast days no breakfast then lunch and dinner or eat breakfast with no lunch and then had dinner needless to say the later did not work for me as it triggered the hunger feeling once I ate.

Try it you have nothing to lose and everything to gain :)

That's a great motto, Blossom for cream cake or anything else that should be very occasional

MrD It's rotten that stbx messed up your head so much, but now you've junked that useless 12 stone of crap, or whatever he weighed.
Now move on, leave him in the dustbin of your history.
Empower yourself, seize new opportunities and go for the life you want

Thanks again everyone!
OohMrDarcy that Camembert meal sounds amazing! I am such a cheese addict. Good to know it's just as nice with carrot sticks than a french stick which always leaves me feeling bloated.
Excellent point re. water, I definitely do not drink enough. I am terrible at remembering! I even set a reminder on my phone yesterday and ignored it!! Doh!
I have been really thinking about it today and trying to have a pint of water between hot drinks - in fact my new plan is to pour and drink a glass of water whenever I put the kettle on!

Iamblossom That is a fabulous mantra. Nice to have another FD buddy. Your evening meal sounds great!
I have a lentil and spinach daal to enjoy this afternoon (store bought sadly as I had no time to cook, but at least it means i know the precise amount of calories) and for dinner I am doing a veggie stir fry so I will just have a small portion.

Lottielulu I think one of the reasons I like the sound of this WOE is that going without brekkie is actually really easy for me. It's by far my least favourite meal and I am not often hungry first thing in the morning.

It's 12.50 now and I am only just now beginning to feel a rumbling in my tummy. My DD is napping which is when I tend to have lunch (in peace!) but today I am getting on with some work on the computer and will have my lunch with her when she wakes up :)

Maddy
Motivation to start 5:2 ?

I have bad knees which get more painful when I am heavy but I found WW an utter chore so the weight was creeping back up.
DH would never join me on WW so it was always a bit half arsed.
We watched the MM programme actually we watch ALL of his programmes and found it interesting but did nothing about it.
Two weeks later MiL died suddenly of a massive stroke.
We have fasted nearly every week since to reduce DH's risk of it happening to him and my knee pain.
Weight loss was absolutely sideways to the decision and the ongoing motivation.

PS I get through fast days with industrial quantities of tea - 4 pints so far today

Have gone slightly off plan by having some spicy parsnip soup for lunch with DH - don't usually have lunch on a FD. But as there is nothing in it but parsnips, onion and a touch of curry paste, I will just remove the eggs from my evening meal, and should come in at 650. I am bobbing around on maintenance so that is fine for me on a FD.

Afternoon all, its nearly 3pm and I've just had my lunch

Also on 4th pint of water (for info Maddy!)

Food shopping has been delivered- first big shop since I started this... very different shop to normal Lots of eggs and chicken and veg, some tins of soup and not much else for me (plus the usual stuff for the DC)

I know I keep going on about it but I can't get my head around suddenly deciding to try omelette again, and actually loving it!

BigChoc - thanks thats exactly what I'm doing and I'm over the moon that I'm letting myself do it (history of being a classic self saboteur )

I'm really looking forward to a slimmer and healthier christmas too, and have already started thinking about ways I can enjoy myself but keep 5:2 going!

Hope everyone else's FDs are going well too!

Thanks for sharing your story Ta1kinPeace

Argh MrDarcy I've only had two and a half glasses of water so far! Had tea, green tea and a coffee too.

Lentil and spinach daal was lovely and very filling. Still got sinus pain so had to take a paracetamol but waited until after I had eaten.

Really worried about making it through until dinner time - we don't eat until about 8pm. Usually find myself grazing at 5ish when DD eats.

Maddy
If you feel the need to eat with your DD, have a pint of water first and then peel and eat a whole raw carrot ....
stuff all calories,
good for your teeth,
takes a while,
sets a good example,
excuse for lots of bad bugs bunny jokes

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