5:2 Thread number 56: Calories are tiny imps who live in your wardrobe and sew your clothes a bit tighter every week. Join us to renew your wardrobe

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had EDs you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi, FD here but I am struggling. (four coffees )
I am looking forward to Tuesday when kids go to school again. Lot of bickering:-(
Week 8 run 1 C25k today so feel OK but hungry and annoyed.

Congratulations Mazzle.
Hi Dumpy.

Hi, here for my weekly check in ( though I've been reading the thread every day for motivation and inspiration, well done Sophie and Antique ). I'm just shy of 4 weeks in and just hit the one stone loss mark , and an inch and a half and 2 inches off waist and hips respectively. Definitely feeling as though the loss is evening out now after that initial big loss but that's fine with me, the nsvs are as satisfying as the svs .

Did a bit of socialising this week and was pleased that I ate sensibly without really thinking about it, I seem to be starting to eat like a slim person does.

A question regarding tdee: do I now recalculate this to my new weight or should I aim to eat tdee of my goal weight on nfds?

Good luck to all those fasting today, I'm having an unplanned FD today as I had a lovely lie in past lunch. Ive got a nightshift tonight and I've not fasted going into one before, I tend to fast after my last one so it will be interesting to see how I cope- can't just go to bed if I feel hungry!

Congrats on losing a stone in 4 weeks, Knapsack and your inches NSV is important too. A great start.
Your rate of loss is probably slower now, but that's fine. Your body needs to consolidate its losses and rebalance its systems.

If you still have a few stone to lose, you would probably lose at a sensible rate on current sedentary TDEE, but I suggest you recalculate TDEE for your current weight and then after each new stone lost.
If you plateau (zero loss) for 2 weeks, you could try goal TDEE for 3 NFDs per week, with current TDEE for the other 2 NFDs. Wait until a plateau though, because this needs to be a sustainable WOE, not a race.

Well done on your SV too, Antique nailing your September target & more.
I keep telling folk that they'll probably drop water weight after totm, so you are a good example for anyone currently worrying.
Even without totm, many women lose in fits and starts, not linearly.
Just be patient and look at the trend over several weeks, rather than a single day or week.

We all have the occasional greedy day, Bus Don't worry, just move on.

Welcome back, Dumpy It's fine to ease into FDs, but I recommend you do NOT do more than 2 successive mini-FDs (sub-1000 cals) or more than 3 total per week.
Best to just do whatever you can manage on those days, but have at least 4 NFDs where you are not too far below TDEE. This enables you to have a normal life on NFDs, so you don't give up. A weight loss WOE needs to be sustainable longterm.

Another successful NFD and 7 days sugar/treat free. I feel confident that I'm back on track but don't want to be too over ambitious and fall off again!

Thanks for the advice bigchoc, so tonight I have thrown caution slightly to the wind and had a bowl of greek yoghurt and granola after dinner.

I'm still at a healthy weight and at normal BMI I just know I have a tendency to go off the rails and I was trying to reset my WOE after indulging on my hols. Planning a Tues and Fri FD but will definitely stick to my measly TDEE on the NFD

Fast day tomorrow. It will be hard. I can do it.

You sound well on track, dumpy, Kitty and training yourself into healthier longterm habits.
Lots of SVs and NSVs this week. Well done, everyone.
That was a good weekend and quite sensible for most of us

Hi! After MN disabled the Android app, I haven't been on MN much. And won't be as much going forward either as the mobile website is not as easy to use on the way to work.

Still doing 5:2 but still unable to get any lower than about 55.6kg. I lose a bit on FDs but it goes back on NFDs when I eat up to TDEE (and no, I'm not counting incorrectly or eating crap). Last week I did a 900 kcal mini fast one day and put weight on. I'll see how it goes, maybe I need to just accept this is the lowest weight I can get to.

Morning all. Good luck to the Monday fasters.

Stripy You may be at your lowest possible weight, or you may be able to lose that extra 0.6 kg over the 1-2 months. IIRC, Betsy lost her last 7 lb at 1lb per month.

What activity level have you set for TDEE ?
What is your BMI ?
The ideal waist (narrowest pt) for a women is 0.38 - 0.43 of height. What is yours ?

You sound lean now. However, if 55 kg is really important to you, you could do Mimi's "boot camp" and a very strict 4-6 weeks:

. Calc TDEE for sedentary, or 10% lower than current, whichever is lower.
. Try to cut out added sugar, alcohol, fruit juice, takeaways and any junk carbs like crisps, chips, pizza. If not possible, have a total of one glass or portion on at most 2 days per week
. Make your diet low GI, replacing any white carbs with complex.
Optionally, for this limited period only, go modified low carb: unlimited non-starchy veg, but maximum 1 portion fruit and 1 small portion starchy carbs per day.
. Optionally, limited period only, add a 3rd FD
. 5 days per week, add the Fat Blasts from the OP on 5:2 ExerciseThread3

That would at least show if 55 kg is possible for you, within the next 6 weeks.

I'm in today. Managed to sleep until 8am, which always helps on a FD.

Hello! I only recently discovered there was a name for what I sort of fell into without thinking about it - I am doing 16:8, and my fasting window is generally 12-8pm.

A few months ago I decided to really kick my sugar habit and started eating an ayurvedic mung bean soup mono-fast for 40 days. I basically ate the same meal every day with the addition of fresh fruits and veggies (and nuts, since I'm still bf'ing and needed more calories). I started losing weight after a few weeks, and once I finished my mono-fast I continued avoiding all processed foods and sugar etc.

I came across IF by googling "is skipping breakfast bad for you" because I'd realised that I had basically stopped eating in the morning for a couple of weeks without noticing it. 16:8 fits into my life simply and easily, though I am hungry when I first wake up I must admit! Waiting until lunchtime to eat isn't a huge chore, and since I am seeing some great results I'm happy to carry on.

I generally drink water and herbal tea with a splash of whole milk in the mornings, and do my daily exercise. I do eat quite a lot during my fasting window, and according to my TDEE I can go up to 1900 cal and still lose weight, so I feel comfortably fed. :D

This week I lost an inch around my waist, so it's clearly working. I fast 24 hours once a month for religious reasons, so I'm happy with this arrangement. I don't think I'll bother with 5:2, as it makes things awkward with family life. I hate fixing meals whilst fasting!

Welcome, Raisin Well done on your SV and inches & lifestyle NSVs.

Quite a number of people, especially in the fitness world, have been doing a form of intermittent fasting before we had names for everything.
You are doing IF your way - daily IF and a monthly FD - and you see comparable benefits.
Most folk here are doing 5:2, but others are doing a wide range of IF variations.

BCF I was ill with a dreadful cold - stomach was fine. But I just didn't eat much during the days when I was at my worst which saw my weight go down. This weekend gone I made up for it with entertaining guests and a carb-fest.

So I had my FD today and it wasn't too bad. I was pretty busy with work, and didn't have access to food, then used my lunch break to go to a money changer. So no chance of eating until dinner time anyway.

I do feel a bit hungry now, but will try to just stick with water and have an early night.

Good luck Monday fasters!

Terror I found that I fasted far more successfully when I had some office space last year. I just too no food and no money with me.

Today is going well. It is definitely a mindset thing because recently I've been expecting it to be hard so giving up by lunchtime. I'm out at DS's tennis lesson and will stick a chicken in to roast when I get home.

Fast day going really well so far, hour and a half till I have tea. Have kept myself busy with the children, and just swam a mile, first proper exercise for a fortnight. Feel good. In control. It's a nice feeling.

Mn app being out has seriously hindered my mn habit and my diet

Well done to all fasters and losers.

I'm surprised at how easily I've fallen off the wagon, the last two days have been awful. No exercise, far too much food, and worse (for me at least) not even logging the food, so I have no reflection on how bad it got to try and save it. But I'm still not snacking- that is a habit that appears to be broken in earnest.

Tomorrow is fd 1 for me, and Thursday or Friday for fd2. I may yet go out this evening and get c25k week 2 run 1 done. In fact- I will.

Right, I'm back in control of my eating today. Feel loads better for it.

Raisin I do a daily 8 eating window. Works well for me .

I'm glad to hear it, LetMeDrive. :D It's good to know I'm not the only one working it out this way.

Right. In addition to daily yoga I've decided to do the 30 day squat challenge. I managed 50 squats today (day 1! this will be easy...) and my legs feel very wobbly.

Fasting Alternatives

Primal or anyone else maybe finding 500-cal FDs are tough:

First, just aim for mini-FDs, i.e. below 1,000 cals AND check your NFDs average within sedentary TDEE

Then 2 possibilities:

1. If your mFDs average within 700 cals, that's still a big deficit and you can afford to ease gradually towards 500 cals over several weeks, even months and still lose, a but more slowly. OR
2. If your mFDs are nearer 1000-cals, have 3 per week, e.g. Mon, Wed & Fri. That would give the same 3000 deficit as classic 5:2 for someone with TDEE 2000, hence probably a similar 1lb weekly loss. For TDEE 1500, it would give 1500 deficit, instead of 2000 with classic 5:2.deficit. So maybe 0.5 lb weekly

Sounds a good day for you, Bus, Blossom

Cooking Try to eat healthily within TDEE today, to avoid craving spirals. A 5k run would really help too.
How have you done so far ?
I recommend you plan out your FD tomorrow now, so you can nail it and get back in control

Thanks BigChocFrenzy, this is certainly what I found useful last year:

have 3 per week, e.g. Mon, Wed & Fri, but at nearer 700-800 cals at a time.

Raisin Many of us do 16:8 on NFDs, to help stay within TDEE, or just to save time.
Most days, I just have a huge lunch and a high tea, i.e. Fast 5 (5-hr eating window) but I am known to be weird
B&W Didn't you mention Fast 5ing sometimes ?

Thanks big choc, I'm within tdee today but can't honestly say it's healthily so. I've planned fd tomorrow, and got a run in.

Overall, I'm plateauing atm ( this weekend hasn't helped) but after such dramatic loss in the first weeks I think that's normal (the first 13lbs were lost in 10 days)

Hi BC

I do aim for a Fast 5 on occasion, it fits my lifestyle to have lunch at 1.00 and dinner at 6.00, but too often I'm seduced by leftovers around midnight or later.

At least I can then say the next day that I had my breakfast last night!

I wonder if you'd like to cast your eyes over this article and let me know what you think. I came across it in response to a feature in today's D Mirror saying we should all eat more carbs. So I went looking for the opposite viewpoint.