5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Had my second ever FD yesterday and came in on 500 cals

Had tandoori prawns and calamari with yoghurt and mint dressing (m&s 160 cals) on rocket, green pepper & spring onion

Then for dinner an m&s prawn noodle ready meal with chilli soy and ginger (310 cals)

2x Cup of tea with milk in the morning then Black coffee and water throughout the day.

Can I ask some advice about calculating my TDEE? I don't do any actual dedicated exercise at the moment so I've been calculating my TDEE as sedentary which works out about 1650 and then for the last couple of months using mfp to eat about 1450 a day and have lost weight doing this.

However I was chatting to a friend yesterday who said they would not count me as sedentary as I walk lots of places with my toddler in his pushchair, I live in a very hilly city abs with picking him up/putting him down that makes me quite active.

So I recalculated my TDEE based on the lightest exercise and it comes out about 1900 (I'm 35, 5ft6) but this seems loads. Or maybe I just need to get more in the 5:2 mindset that I'm creating my deficit in fds?

Thanks Bigchoc.
I only did it as I know that it's harder for me to fast when I've got the DC...
I have generally been v good on my NFDs but had fallen of the wagon over DS birthday and a big weekend away for us. However, with all of that I've weight this morning and maintained at my low of 166. So I'm pleased with that. I may try a mini FD later in the week. This morning though I have had a rare treat of a pain au chocolat (MFPd!!)

Thanks for the suggestion BigChoc, they look just the ticket. I will stock up. Thanks also for the good wishes. I'm not hardcore, I just want to maximise weight loss before Saturday!

second fast day here, got a feelign it'll be a struggle. Trying to hold out til lunchtime for a handful of strawberries then that will (hopefully) be it until dinnertime.

MrsMagoo The definitions of activity level in the TDEE calculators are much higher than the average person realises, e.g. lightly active is 1-3 x weekly sport.
You are in the sedentary / lightly active region and I strongly recommend using sedentary.

If you are losing weight at a reasonable rate and not feeling weak, then you are eating about the correct amount. TDEE is an average over populations and some folk need say 10-15% less, as you are currently doing.
I suggest you eat up to your full sedentary TDEE on NFDs when you feel hungry and check after a week or so that your loss doesn't slow.

However, if you go from your current 1450 to 1900, on 5 days, that is an extra 2250 cals and your loss would come to a crashing halt.

Hang on, Meerka stay strong.
A boiled egg or slice of chicken / fish would keep you fuller longer than fruit, which would raise insulin levels

Morning all. Good NFD yesterday, involving a small slice of cake with both lunch and tea
Have mfp'd my planned food for today and there's "room" for the same again. Got to love this WOE!
Being stricter with myself on NFDs and making sure I don't tip over my TDEE definitely makes all the difference to my weight loss. Am back in the 10st 10lbs region again and hoping that after tomorrow's FD I might see 10st 9lb something....... fingers crossed

confused - I didn't know you were getting married this week, how exciting! Hope you feel good and happy in your dress and allow yourself at least a couple of days of relaxed eating afterwards!

mm thanks, bigchoc. Might a few cubes tofu do as well? easier today

Hello, I'm de-lurking to ask for some advice. I started doing 5.2 5 weeks ago, using lots of the ideas on these threads (thank you ). I've lost 7lbs so far. I wasn't officially overweight to start with (just nearing the top of my acceptable BMI, but feeling rather flabby) and I'm happy with progress and can feel a difference. I'm finding it a very sustainable WOE at the moment.

However, I am just about to have my kitchen refitted, which means for the next few weeks I'm going to have very limited food prep space, and barely any cooking facilities. In theory, having no access to the kitchen cupboards may reduce temptation, but I think that we'll be relying a lot on takeaways, eating out, and pre-prepped food (e.g. supermarket deli counter). I'm worried that this is going to seriously derail my efforts over the next few weeks.

Any one have any tips on how to deal with the inevitable takeaways/meals out, or good ideas for things I might be able to throw together that won't be massively full of calories?? I also need what I cobble together to be family friendly. I have a gas bbq which means I can grill stuff (weather permitting), a kettle, and a slow cooker (no microwave).

I'm on FD #2. Migraine symptoms started about an hour ago and I took 2 paramol tablets. The packet says to take with food so I brought forward my planned lunch (soup) and ate that about half an hour ago.
Visual disturbance has subsided but the numbness now seems to be starting (this usually happens if I don't take any tablets quick enough).
I'm wondering whether to abandon this FD or try and get through it by sleeping off the migraine symptoms.
Anyone have any experience or advice?

I don't have migraines thank goodness but my instinct would be to abandon it for today and do what gets you through the day. Hope you're feeling better soon
cakeaddict when we had our kitchen refitted we did rely on takeaways and by the end we were craving salad. However you could just use ready meals sensibly, and perhaps Covent garden or similar soups on FDs?

Thanks for the clarification bigchock.

I'm actually new to 5:2 and the 1450 cal that I had been consuming per day was was daily intake before I started it. On NFSs I have been trying to stick to 1650 cal per day which gives me 2300 deficit per week which is larger than my previous 200 cal cut per day (1400 over the week) so hoping my weight loss will accelerate.

Thanks again for the clarification on TDEE calculation.

Thanks confused, but I'll have no way to heat ready meals or soup!! FD won't be a problem, I can do salad with smoked mackerel etc - or just not eat! - it's the NFDs and feeding a family that might be trickier...

Happy Wedding week Confused hope you have a lovely day and well done on fitting 2 FDs in!

My back to back FDs went OK though I did have an extra 150 cals on day 2. My plan is to stick to TDEe today and maybe a mini fast on Thursday.

cakeaddict if you haven't got one just get a cheapie microwave. It will be well worth it, we used ours loads when our kitchen was done. We kept it in the living room!
Thanks chevron! I'm at the stage now where FDs are relatively easy, so it's no real hardship. I still haven't managed back to back FDs though - well done!!

Dotty I've missed your post about your mum, glad to hear it's nothing major.

Waves at Mrsmugoo

cake you your slow cooker (I don't have one, so no idea how you use it, but I assume you can make some stews/casseroles in it?)
Also salads are not necessarily FD food!
Sandwiches with wholegrain bread
Porridge where you only pour boiling water for breakfast

Another FD attempt today, so far going well, just had a big veg salad with sardines for lunch, I'm stuffed! Going to make myself some tea and it will be scrambles eggs for dinner. Friday will be my second day, and I'll try to have a clean day tomorrow.

Good luck all fasters!

That was supposed to be use, not you!

Reporting in today. Managed my 3rd FD without struggling much, due to being better prepared. The 10 cal Bovril drink was lovely and probably filled the void that evening snacking has created. I do feel a bit weird in my thigh muscles today. They just feel fatigued. Hopefully that means my body dug deep for an energy source yesterday.

Wishing you all the best for your wedding confused
I love the M&S super nutty wholefood salad as well (had one for lunch today), but can I suggest you don't have it on Friday before the big day - it's super garlicky!!!

Hope you have a lovely wedding day confused :)

Cakeaddict Without a proper kitchen, you'll need to plan your meals for the day in advance, to avoid undoing your hard work on 5:2

I agree with the idea of a v cheap microwave. If it's going to be several weeks, then it will be cheaper & healthier for a family than takeaways. Certainly would allow far more ready meal options and save a lot of faffing around preparing stuff for the slow cooker.

I recommend daily 16:8 and NO snacking or grazing, to keep NFDs under control. If you want to share a very large meal on an NFD, just have coffee or a green salad for the other meals.

With a microwave, on FDs you can choose extra sides of carbs and sauce etc for the family, while you just have lean meat & veg. Probably easiest though just to get a separate ready meal for yourself.

Hiccup I hope you feel better now after a sleep.
For the future, I don't know if a teasp of Marmite mid-morning & afternoon would help avoid migraines - it helps avoid normal headaches.

Everybody: Don't try to fast if you don't feel well enough, whether with migraines, colds, fever or anything else. Just eat healthily within TDEE, no junk, plenty of water.

Thanks for the tips. Perhaps I need to bite the bullet then and get a cheapy microwave. I've never actually owned one, and considered getting one for the new kitchen, but then decided against it. Perhaps I'm worried about finding out I actually love them and regretting not building it into the plans for the new kitchen . I'll see how we go - I'm hoping we'll have a functioning oven after about 2-3 weeks so we might manage...

Thanks, bigchoc. Unfortunately, no opportunity for a sleep and an hideously busy/long day with small children. Fortunately, the painkillers I took this morning took the edge off and halted the symptoms.

Hmm, can't say I had a healthy lunch but have been reasonably sensible.

I'm off to Pilates now and a quick swim after. Hoping both will help me to unwind a bit.

I don't think my migraine was triggered by fasting...they're usually hormone related but I don't get them all that often now. I really hope they're nothing to do with fasting because this is the first time I have successfully lost weight and I'd be gutted if I had to stop this woe.

Aww thanks all you're very kind! FD gone well, just had my dhal soup, will watch the end of this episode of Breaking Bad we're watching, then off to bed for me. Tomorrow I have a day at the spa with my sis and mate, but doing an exercise class first thing so I can be guilt free!
Incidentally, since exercising on fast days I find them easier. Does anyone else feel like this? I'd have thought it would be the opposite.