5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Afternoon all.
FD going OK actually. Planned my meal and have about 100cal left so I think I'll have an egg.
I didn't get time to go to the gym, but I managed a 30min HIIT workout from FitnessBlender on YouTube. It was a killer, but it suppressed the old appetite for an hour or so!
Looking forward to NFD tomorrow, will try to eat closer to TDEE. I think I ate too little yesterday. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write...!

confused
I'm a bit apprehensive about not having much 'on board', but I just didn't want to eat any more than that yesterday.
Remember you've always got 10,000 calories stashed across the back of your hips

Have spent some time today trying on clothes from my wardrobe - some that fitted in the past and now do again, some that never fitted and now do, and some that will hopefully fit after a few more pounds loss. I have too many clothes but at least there is plenty to wear along the way to goal weight.

Thanks for the interesting information about fat/muscle loss and fasting BigChoc. That echoes my experience.

fast day nearly over ... going for a late swim shortly, that should carry me over til bed

absentmindedly opened a bottle of 0% beer, 75cals, when a friend came over and still within FD allowance, rather pleased about that =)

Haha TiP only 10,000???
I am pleased with today. Only 70cal on milk for coffee so far.

confused
joking aside, the point is that if you are not hungry you'll not starve - your body will just use up some of what it put aside for storage earlier.

Its why I get so annoyed with people who tell me they will faint from hunger if they do not eat every hour : while carrying a month's worth of calories around their waists

That sounds a good, intense workout, confused that should have boosted fat-burning on your FD.
Egg was a good nourishing choice for about 80 cals.

Meerka You need to get together with breadandwine to develop an FD menu with beer

That's another wardrobe NSV, Stripy

Everyone: that's a good way to keep motivated, especially on FDs:
go though your wardrobe and check what fits now, that was too tight before.
For your next goal, add say "skinny blue skirt" to that "10 stone"

I've been following 5:2 since the beginning of march and following the threads although I do seem to have trouble when they get long. I've come down into normal Bmi, waist < half height and I've dropped 9lbs. In addition I've had to buy size 12 jeans down from a large 14. My size 14 tops are all too big and I'm replacing via the charity shop. I'm loving 5:2. Thanks for all the pointers. Egg fried cauliflower rice (with loads of veg in) is my new favourite fd meal. With sriracha, soy and Sesame oil tonight. Delicious!

Question for you 5:2 veterans - why does my stomach not rumble (much) on FD's compared to NFD's and why am I not that hungry on FD's - is it all in the mind or does my body expect it on those days - been doing for several months and only 5kg left before I hit pre children ideal weight! My previous goal was here but new goal is my lovely honeymoon clothes (that I haven't worn for 10yrs!!!)

Am ready for my first fast day tomorrow ! (Previous poster under a name change )

I'm skipping breakfast and will just have a coffee with sweetener and skimmed milk.

For lunch I have some salad leaves, mushrooms and some Puy lentils with porcini and other mushroomy flavours

Am doing a carbonara recipe from this month's Jamie recipe for dinner. It's got 1 tbsp of ricotta in it which isn't too bad in cals actually. And I will have a very small amount of linguine and will bulk it out with 'courgetti'

That leaves me a few cals for a squirt of balsamic vinegar spray on my lunch

Am going out thursday night so will have a bowl of Wagamama ramen

Already nervous about failing!

madaunt
A lot of hunger is mental. On a FD your brain is telling your body to use what it has and to enjoy the healthy gap.
On an NFD your brain is thinking about food so your tummy does IYSWIM.

It may be worth on those days deciding when you will eat and informing your tummy to shut up till that time.

And well done on aiming at honeymoon size.

For my 50th birthday party I wore a jacket I bought when I was 19 - and it still fits
The only thing stopping all of us being the same weight we were at 20 is our brains.

Fd done! Yah, ok it was an 800 calorie one but as mentioned by BC(I think?) it's a number I can work down from. I had got down to 12.2-3 before I went on a break last week but managed to eat my way up to 12.8, decided to do a quick wi today. So let's see on Friday if there's any progress. Nice to be getting back onboard, so enjoying reading everyone's experiences. Well done all Monday fd'ers, tomorrow I'm going to aim for 1450 as my TDEE is 1600, in another week I'll aim for 20% less than tdee for a couple of days a week. I know it works if I do it right. Looking forward to my porridge in the morning...drool

what a lovely idea, a FD with a few sips of beer =)

question: is MyFitnessPal actually accurate with its exercise consumption of calories ratings? I did 35 mins fast breaststroke (just over a km) and it's saying I consumed 530 cals. That can't be right?! I've noticed that will jogging it seems to really estimate much higher than the machines at the gym too. How reliable is MFP?

for exercise : not very - I swim a mile (1600m) breast stroke in 40 mins and it comes in at around 600 : which is a bottle of red!

when I used to add back exercise calories I used to then overeat
now I just include it in my TDEE (not that I log any more) then its just part of the TDEE

sheesh you swim like a particularly svelte fish, TiP! :)

Thanks. I don't eat the exercise cals back either, I was just wondering about MFP, it seemed to say exercise consumed so many calories, far more than the gym machines said (and I've heard they aren't too accurate either).

It's really nice the way a good bit of exercise makes you forget a rumbling tummy. Somehow I feel better exercising on a fast day than a NFD, something about feeling leaner and meaner.

And WOW at being able to wear the same jacket at 19 and 50. Just wow /salute

Welcome, slummymummy and congrats on your SV and NSVs. That's excellent, especially the waist

Good luck tomorrow on your 1st FD, nochurn Post whenever you need moral support.

Good return to fasting, not2b That was the important first step and now you'll soon be back to 500 FDs. With your NFD plan, you should soon see results.

Meerka That mfp figure is not far off 1000 cals / hr, very unlikely you swam that hard, since Olympic multi-gold medal swimmer Mark Phelps was quoted as burning 1000 cals per hour.
None of the calculators, gadgets or gym machines are very reliable at calculating exercise calories.

The OP in the exercise thread 3 has the best calculators I could find, e.g.
. Calories Burned for specific exercises: ExerciseCals
. Running Calories burned: RunningCals

A major reason why exercise often brings no weight loss is that the calories burned are seriously over-estimated.
To lose weight via exercisimg, do NOT eat back calories.
At most, set the activity level in your TDEE, but do check their definition of "active" etc because it is far more exercise than most folk realise.

I can promise you that I am not secretly Mark Phelps and there's plenty grey haired old men outswim me! (specially with front crawl).

mostly I use the machines at the gym for a comparison with last time, so if last session burned "212" cals and this session only "180" then it was clearly a slower session. Other than that, I shall consider all machines and MFP as tellers of tall tales from now on.

I am very dubious that small females who are not superb athletes can burn 1000 cals / hr. Definitions like "vigorous" , "intense", "continuous" are applied when often some of the time was not at that level.

Gym machines are deliberately calibrated to over-estimate cals, to encourage customers to return. So any gadget that is not more pessimistic than the gym is probably telling porkies.
Also, we burn 50-100 cals per hour just by being awake, so subtract that from any exercise cals to obtain the extra that the exercise brings.

Meerka, here's a de luxe fast day (DLFD) I had recently. It included two glasses of beer and a (miniscule) glass of wine.

Proving that you can still have treats on your FDs!

Thanks for the new thread, BC!

that looks absolutely lovely breadandwine. We even have some proper english ale atm that visitors brought over, a rare treeat (they brought so much I'm glad Customs didn't stop them!). I'll work that into a diet day soon :)

Yesterday's FD got postponed thanks to a working lunch. I have two more this week :(

So trying again today - as far as I know, all I have to do today is sit in my office and write reports, so hopefully should get through it ok.

Chicken soup and a rice cake for lunch and then one of the innocent veg pots for dinner (they are fantastic on a FD. Come in at about 350 cals and really fill me up... typically they are being discontinued!)

I did a vague MFP of the past few days and I'm coming in way over TDEE... things seem to have slipped a bit over the weekend. Need to get back using MFP again more regularly

vvv That's good to start mfp again. I know many folk find calorie counting a pain, but NFDs are almost always the reason that one don't lose for several weeks.

ouch, doesn't lose

vvv one of the guys from Innocent has set up a new company for the veg pots, some look identical. The new brand is called BOL. Noticed them on Ocado last week.