5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

MrsW The studies on age-related degenerative illnesses (Mattson & co) didn't specifically do b2b, but may have had a mixture of these and non-b2b.

Longo and others have found some health benefits on occasional (at most monthly) 3 to 5-day fasts, like Mosely tried.
However, these MUST be done under specialist supervision.
Also, I think they need modified diet on the 2 days preceeding and following those fast days.

The only b2b studies I'm aware of are Michelle Harvie's, which used 650 cals and a Mediteranean diet.
She was funded by breast cancer charities and found that certain risk factors were reduced by this, including insulin measures, more than by standard daily calorie-reduced diets.
She found weight loss was slightly better with her 5:2 version than with standard diets, but didn't look at non-b2b FDs or 500-cal ones.

IIRC she compared FDs that were low carb with standard healthy FDs and the low carb were as successful as, or better than, the others.

My hypothesis is that b2b low carb FDs may be slightly the healthiest system, but not if 5 consecutive NFDs lead to over-eating or bingeing.
Also not if b2b means you feel weak or are less likely to complete them.

So, I think the best regime is the one that you can follow sustainably and sensibly longterm.

Morning everyone- second FD of week 2 here and I think this one's going to be tricky as I had to be up at 4:30 to take ds2 to school for a trip

On Monday I skipped breakfast and just had a small lunch and larger supper which seemed to work do am aiming for that again today

Thankfully the dog seems v tired too so isn't going as bonkers as I thought with no walks

04:30 is inhuman!

good luck Wednesday fasters.

I did finally check my waist again and there's a cm off so even if the scales are fluctuating wildly, there's signs of progress. Either way, whether there is or isn't, I think that chilling out is the way to go and not expecting too much, enjoying the health benefits. Trying to take the view now that it'll come off in its own time, as long as I'm strict about the FDs and not snacking and also eating loads of veg.

Thanks for your post BC I feel I can do b2b FDs quite easily but may try to keep them to 500 calories instead of the 650 if possible. My main worry is that 650 calories will not put me into a proper fasted state, especially as I split it over 2 meals.
I really love the thought that my fasting is over for the week now and I think that there is less chance of me overeating for the rest of the week. normally the day after a FD I can't stop eating.
Next week I will have to separate the FDs anyway as I have a trip to the cinema. I've done a 'cinema fast' before and it was not fun!

Completed my C25K this morning and the scales show a pound down since Friday although I think it's probably just water from the FDs.

Good morning, 2nd FD here. Feeling fine so far although obvs it is only 9:20am Someone complimented me today on how well i was looking and how good my skin is... benefits of fasting already no doubt

Am going to save all cals for tea tonight: quorn chilli with courgette instead of rice.

Meerka, not2b Have you tried combining 5:2 with low carb (FDs and NFDs) ?
If 5:2 worked more quickly before and you haven't changed how you do it or types of food, then insulin resistance (caused by e.g. a pregnancy) could be the holdup.

I was thinking of that BC - it's only when I think of LC do I realise how many carbs I probably do eat unthinkingly! Weak weak mini fast yesterday, bad weekend all round if I'm honest. There'll be no defending my behaviour this Friday, if I gain or don't lose, there'll be no mystery that's for sure. Did a 3.5 mile job this morning, scrambled egg + 1 egg white and 20gr smoked salmon. Sounds good and LC but lunch is a brown sambo - d'oh! Will have a good read if thread this evening, do some LC research. Have a great day all

2nd FD here. Had to have a 0% total yoghurt for brekkie as was starving but will now not eat till this evening.

Planning 2 lamb steaks with lots of veg. Will probably work out at 600 cals rather than 500 but I can live with that.

Can't exercise today either as DS1 poorly and off school. They get right in the middle of your day don't they these pesky kids?

Dh doing 5:2 with me.....first thing he said this morning "is today a starvacious day?" with a pained look on his face...

Following your recommendations I have cut back on white carbs to about 1/3 the previous amount - rice, pasta n potatoes. I eat quinoa 2-3 days a week instead and miss out the white carbs in the evening meal for myself. I can't quite completely cut them out, it's not completely practical. For instance, we eat regularly with MIL's idea and her idea of a good meal is a huge pot of mashed potato with bacon bits or worst in ... "stamppot", it's called. I eat some of it but then come home and fill up on vegs! (funnily enough MIL is worryingly obese, we don't want to lose, she's just lovely).

The big differences between the previous time of 5:2ing and now are:-

1. I eat more veg, so on a FD I do meticulously MFP, but instead of the generally very small meals in the Fast Diet original book I eat a big plate greens + 75g or so chicken/shrimps. That comes in at about 225 - 300cals. (plus a lunch of lettuce leaves and boiled egg/shredded smoked salmon and ofc mugs of tea, also calorie counted). So there's less fluctuation due to sheer amount of food in the system ... er, which means the fluctuations are coming from elsewhere ....

2. simply time. it was a bad preg with my weight shooting all over and serious system strain due to HG and also a case of sepsis. The first preg was also HG-bad and it took me about 3-4 years to get over it. Also I have ME, though that's greatly improved in the last 3 years. I may have been expecting too much of myself.

3. have been going to the gym much more when I can. I -want- to go 2 x a week, but can't always (the ME). Even so I'm in way way better shape physically and literally than before starting to go in Jan.

Do think I'm doing most things right, so I suspect that now it comes down to the right frame of mind - accepting that it's slow, and keeping to the healthy self-discipline of not snacking etc. I am debating trying 2- 4 weeks alcohol free like confused is, but that takes a bit of getting my head round =) (it'd be a bloody good thing to do though).

we don't want to lose her* (oops)

Don't think I'll do FD on my day off again - haven't actually eaten anything but my brain has too much free time! Was stuck in the kitchen all morning due to carpet fitters. I'm away at the weekend so want to do as well as possible before then, so maintained my willpower despite looking in the fridge a few times!

Thanks Errol and Big choc. The PCOS is well-controlled and I am not medically overweight/ BMI wise, plus am on Metformin (probably unecessarily - long story).

I need to watch carb intake on non FD I think because of this.

Sitting down to a late breakfast just now of Total 0% (BIG thumbs up for this - thanks whoever mentioned it on here) and one of dc's Innocent fruit smoothie tubes which has 20cals and has made it YUM.
No way would I think this was only 90something cals.

Do feel very lightheaded though - didn't have a big dinner last night and did sport, then an hour's dog walk this morning on no breakfast. Hoping this will fend it off now.

DH is doing Mon/ Tues back-to-back and finding it fine.

4:30 am That deserves major mum points < sends supportive vibes to Basil >
It can be very tough fasting when sleep-deprived, but if munchies strike, try to take a 10 min walk (but not as circuits around the fridge !)

knowler If you received compliments after just 1 FD, you should expect an ode from the Poet Laureate after a couple of months

Meerka Weight fluctutations may be caused by timing of digestion / variation in foods from previous NFD. Any excess carbs would retain about 3 x their weight for storage, so variable carb intake on different NFDs would contribute to weight zig-zag

Also, your hormones can cause significant variations if they are in a state of flux or imbalance, caused e.g. by your very difficult pregnancy.
Some hormones affect the amount of water retention; others like insulin affect fat transport / storage / burning. So, probably your % water and % body fat are fluctuating more than pre-preg.

Blossom I hope your DCs recocer quickly.
Your DH Tell him to be more positive. Alternative names:
Optimal Nutrition Day, Pampers Body Pamper Day .....
Anyone else have their fab FD names ?

Entirely If you are feeling light-headed, have a drink of water, then top up salt & other minerals & B vits with a teasp Marmite / tbsp unsweetened soy sauce / hot drink of Bovril ( each 10 cals)

Blossom Try to make FDs the opportunity for non-food treats, like downloading a new movie to watch together, or new music to dance too.
Difficult to find a combined activity (apart from the obvious) as your Dh probably would not be thrilled by giving him a new shade of nail varnish, hair, home spa etc.
Oh, you could try mutual hand and foot massage, very soothing & pampering. He might even like the candle-lit bath routine.

I call fast days my Lean Mean Keen days.

I wonder it's the hormones yeah bigchoc. Since reading here that carbs retain 3x the water I've been careful. there's also hormone problems in the genetic line, though mine ain't too bad or pregnancy would have been impossible.

It really is well worth persisting with the 5:2 though. Do really enjoy it, like others I miss it if I can't diet for a few days =)

Question: On diet days I get carbs from peas n carrots. Are there any other veggies high in complex carbs? Getting a bit carrotted-out.

Just checking in for a bit of moral support. Not having lunch today but pretty hungry - it is however a 'different' hunger to that which I get on non-FD days. I'm just hungry - but not craving anything.

What are people's experiences of drinking a lot of coffee - I love it, but wondering if it helps or hinders appetite suppression on a FD

knowler I find tea and coffee and diet cola good for suppressing appetite on fast days. Just make sure you include calories from milk and sugar.

knowler - IKWYM, I am hungry but not craving anything in particular. Have just made not-so-ill-anymore DC1 chilli and mashed potato which smelled pretty good..... Drinking loads of water (about 2 litres so far today) and I drink black coffee with sweeteners, sometimes decaf so I don't get the jitters from too much caffeine but I also drink the hazelnut and caramel ones from the Dowe Egberts Flavour collection, they are lovely.

Iam might it be worth trying a bit of soy sauce or marmite? mabye it's just me but sometimes I find a bit of salt really helps with an indeterminate craving.

Iamblossom how coffee-ey are those Doewe coffees?? I don't really like coffee but they look great! Are there any calories in them?

Errol thanks for Dahl recipe, was big success last night. Really delicious.

Another FD here, and am another 1kg down which is amazing- so much of my holiday weight gain must have been carbs and retained water. Very interesting, and you were all right! So actual damage looks more like 2-3kg, which I can live with.

Good luck to other fasters and non-fasters

I f*g hope not Octo!! [rushes to look]

phew. No cals. Quite coffee-ey and very nutty