5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all. Checking in for my first fast day in a week. My BP is back to normal so feeling able to fast again. we were away for the weekend and I found with a bit of planning I easily stayed within my daily cal allowance so I hope the scales don't show a gain on my next weigh in. I will Shred later and walk the dogs if this rain ever stops.

Thanks for the tips TiP! I will be doing the standing up to MN one for sure.

Mazzle please tell us how it went with the personal shopper (all the details such as where you went, refreshments offered, amount of clothes you tried on, hard sell etc)

Thank you for the congrats on my 10K everyone. No, it wasn't hilly apart from one teeny one at the end which gave the bonus of a downhill towards the finish post. I've only gone and entered the Bristol half marathon whilst still on my runners high!!!

I have had 3 'bingy' weekends in a row which has disappointed me. I've got back on track each time by returning to normal 5:2 but I don't want to be continuously stuffing my face then undoing the damage. On the plus side it has made me look at my behaviour and think about how to change. I have been reading the sugar free thread on here and have ordered books suggested from the library. I seem to have amazing willpower when I'm on track but once I've started the junk it's like I have no control at all.

MABS i like ham (lean) with gherkins for breakfast - is far more delicious and breakfasty than it sounds

Did my first FD yesterday and came in about 750cals, which i am ok with. Tomorrow is my next one and i'm going to get closer to 500cals. i also did one of Davina's 7 minute workouts - has anyone done this with any actual results?! It definitely raised my heartrate, but obv for 7 mins only :)

Octonauts, I posted the Dahl recipe (which is courtesy of Mrs whiskers) on the recipe thread - it's probably still quite near the top ie newest. I've not figured how to do links from my iPod I'm afraid.

Thanks Errol just found it, and even have all the ingredients already!

Welcome, Reason, Camping

Well done on your SV, MABS As long as you are losing, don't worry about your higher FDs. Do it your way.
For breakfast, I sometimes have tinned sardines with horseradish, tomato & lemon on wholegrain toast.

Glad to hear your dog will be ok soon, Basil
Good luck with those 10 days. You can do rope skipping to work off some energy - but he's forbidden to join in.

Checklist for Slow Losers
This may be your 1st attempt at 5:2, or maybe you lost before easily, but not now. Let's try to see why:

1. Are you losing inches ? If so, you are losing fat and the scales will catch up eventually.
   5:2 / IF tends to improve body composition and fat weighs less than the same volume of lean body mass.

2. Are you actually doing FDs, at least sub-700, on at least 2 days per week ?
   Count how many you missed, if any.

3. Have you calculated your TDEE with the calculator in the OP ?
   Have you checked their definition of each activity level ?
   Has your exercise dropped off ?
   The calculators are averages over a population. Your real one may be up to 15% lower, especially if you have dieted & lost before before - adaptive thermogenesis.
   Recalculate for sedentary or reduce TDEE by 15% and try that for at least 2 weeks.

4. Have you checked that you are not exceeding TDEE on NFDs, on average, i.e. NFD total cals should be within 5 x TDEE. Don't just guess. mfp for at least one week and you may be shocked.
   Do not eat back exercise cals
   Gadgets usually overestimate the cals and people underestimate the extra food cals.

5. If you are snacking or grazing, STOP. Eat proper meals, with preferably at least 4 hours without calories in between.
   Try 16:8, or 14:10 if that is too tough.

6. If your diet is very junky / boozy, restrict junk / sweets / alcohol to 2 days max per week, with one moderate portion only from this junk group. Try for at least 2 weeks.
   Can you have an alcohol-free month ? Your liver may need time to recover, especially if you consume a lot of sugary food too.
   Do not eat / drink junk at all on FDs. They need to be healthy, high-nutrition.

7. If you are doing all of the above correctly, this is probably a metabolic issue:
   Are you on new meds ? Have you started peri / post / menopause or had a baby ?
   Ask your GP to check for thyroid or PCOS issues if you have other symptoms that suggest these.

You may have become (more) insulin-resistant.
If so, although you still need a calorie deficit and FDs to lose, you may not lose on a standard diet with starches.

Try at least 4 weeks on strict low carb: protein, moderate fat, unlimited non-starchy veg, but NO starches or fruit at all. If you must drink alcohol, have one glass low carb only.
If this works, gradually add complex carbs; say weekly add 5g net carbs per meal, to a limit of 20-60g per meal. Stop if weight loss slows a lot.

You may find that a day of junk carbs sets you back 2 weeks. If so, you decide if you want these very occasionally and accept this.

Morning all, just checking in.

NFD here but going out for nice lunch so just had a berry and vanilla protein shake for breakfast and I'll enjoy a nice two course lunch!

Will probably go for soup, oatcakes and cottage cheese for supper.

So that was first FD done yesterday BOOM! I have been low carbing for 4 years which I like as I am never hungry so it was interesting to feel proper hunger for the first time in ages, which kicked in about 5pm, which is when I would usually eat several handfuls of nuts.

Felt full and sleepy after my tea, found getting off to sleep harder than usual though...

Had porridge for breakfast today, which I haven't had for years, and was shocked at how many calories 100g with water was! 50g would not have been nearly enough! 100g is 370 calories!! Who knew!!!

Counting calories on NFDs is also not something I have had to do for a long time and am finding it very difficult. As long as I have stuck to Low Carb foods I have not had to worry about measuring or counting, another thing I really liked about it.

So am on MFP loads at the moment! Ate the dressing with a Pret tuna nicoise salad for lunch, took it to 400 cals!!

Having said all that I was 3 pounds down on the scales this morning which I know is because of a fast day yesterday, but still very nice to see those numbers, haven't seen them for a while!

2nd FD tomorrow. Not really looking forward to it.....

(FD yesterday came in at 580 cals)

thanks for the great ideas girls :)

Thanks for the Mirror link. Will look.
Shopped in M&S for tomorrow's ready meal and there were quite a few around 300cals. Not bad. Will report back on taste this time.

Not going to even try the Waitrose ones again after yesterday's watery, tasteless abomination, which is a shame as I love Waitrose normally.

I found I was a good pound down on the scales this morning after fast day but figure this must be water because that happened after my first and then it went back to normal.

What's the deal with 5:2 and PCOS if it is fairly controlled? Anyone know?

Basildon - had no walks and a collar on my dog recently and it was not as bad as I thought it would be at the start. Lots of extra attention and you might find the meds make him a bit sleepy at first anyway.

Blossom No reason to give up low carb if you like it.
Just do your 5FDs as normal low carb and 2 FDs as low carb 500 cals, i.e. protein and veg.
Try counting only on the 2 FDs. Many folk don't need to count the NFDs at all. If you don't lose after 2 weeeks, ok, start counting, but keep the low carb.

Entirely As in my looong post below, PCOS tends to slow weight loss (on any WOE) due to the increased insulin levels - high insulin tends to cause fat storage rather than fat burning.
To counter this, try to lower the GI of your food, by minimising added sugar, juice, sweets etc and switching from white carbs to complex ones.
If your PCOS is fairly well controlled, your weight loss won't be as affected as some folk.

That's interesting bigchoc...because if I calorie count on nfds when doing normal low carb I would be waaaaaay over the 1700 odd calories I am "supposed" to eat.

I have a very addictive ocd-type personality and a history of eating disorders so to look for/log/count calories makes me feel like I am being sucked back into that world....

I will do as you suggest and report in. I appreciate your help. You are doing a great job here. I am personal friends with biwi of low carb BootCamp fame and I know how much time and commitment these threads take up. Well done you. Feel proud. You are helping lots of people.

Blossom 100 grams of oats is quite a lot, though. My package has 40 grams as a suggested serving size at 137 kcal.

On the whole grains are quite high in calories. I like to have natural yoghurt and blueberries for breakfast instead; 100 grams of yoghurt and a small handful of blueberries is only about 100 kcal! NFDs with seeds, bee pollen and sometimes banana.

Stripy 100g of oats was less than half a normal bowl. In my house anyway. I was shocked. Maybe I am just used to huge low carb portions...

Blossom I suggest keeping to your normal type of food, or it's too much change & stress all at once.
Just count on FDs and review after 2 weeks. Then you'll know if you need to cut down on NFDs. You could then try to do so simply by cutting portion size, if cal counting is a trigger.

Jimmy You could try going strict low carb at weekends, if that is when you mainline sugar. May be easier to say no sugar, starches, or juice etc for 2 days and train yourself gradually how to handle weekends.

Thanks BigChoc. That sounds like a plan. I don't think the lack of a routine on weekends helps either. I am on a FD today and it's sooo easy because I have had clear activities to do am/pm and I know what I'm having for dinner and that's it. NFDs are trickier as I think 'well I can have that", and on the weekend I don't have a structure to my day either. On a FD I mentally cross off morning/afternoon/early evening/dinner. So being strict and planning for weekends seems the way to go.

I am currently reading The Sweet Poison Quit Plan as recommended on the sugar free threads. It is a very interesting read, especially about fruit.

Iamblossom, the only way I've lost weight before is with low carbing. Wheat doesn't agree with me - or maybe I just tell people that to avoid accepting cake and biscuits.
I'm doing FD x2 a week, keeping the carbs low as well, then keeping to low carb appropriate calorie on other days. It's hard, isn't it? I like you have been used to grabbing a handful of nuts/piece of cheese etc. Breakfasts would be hard but I realised I'm doing 16:8 without realising. Smoked salmon and spinach are my friends!!
I'm only on day 8 btw but loving it. Your head has to be in the right place to start an eating/exercise plan for life. I may relax a bit after dd's graduation but am really pleased with the way I feel slightly less soggy and flabby every day.
This is a brilliant supportive thread!

FD for me and I have come in at about 528. Someone gave me a small bag of Haribo cola bottles at work today and I ate it without thinking. Then I got home and found most of the vegetables I had planned to use for my stir fry had been used, so it was griddled marinaded tofu, garlic and ginger and ... a huge amount of cauliflower. Chilli sauce helped!

< panting and sweating >
No, NOT what you're all thinking < indignant >
I'm at the gym, just finished boxing with the gang. My fav day of the week. Every woman should punch really hard.

Congrats on your clothes NSV, GoingMad Good that you feel full of energy.
Absolutely no need to weigh if you find that stressful. You can monitor via a tape measure or just by clothes feel / trousers falling down

Well done on your 1st FD yesterday Knowler and your FD today, lbnb That supper sounds delic.

Knowler Short, high intensity exercise sessions don't burn many cals but they can help improve insulin metabolism, which is important for weight loss. They can also significantly boost fitness.
Go full effort for those 7mins with Davina and build up to 3-5 x weekly sessions (different days) to gain maximum benefits.

Well done all Tuesday fasters. Not long to go and you can have it tomorrow.

Now on the last leg of my consecutive FDs and I've found it no harder than 2 separate days.
I did have 650 calories both days though- I can't find any information online whether this would have the same health benefits as 2 separate 500 cal fasts.
Providing I manage my C25K fine tomorrow morning then I'd probably prefer doing a Monday Tuesday fast every week.
Well done to other Tuesday fasters. not long now

entirely - I've got PCOS, apart from subfertility and bad acne in the past (touch wood that's over with) I didn't really have any obvious problems. I've lost weight very gradually with 5:2 but I've not been trying to lose it fast (hate calorie counting and I'm small). I never got more than slightly into the overweight BMI band which I'm pretty sure helped to avoid the insulin issues. I think it's one of those syndromes where everyone is a bit different but 5:2 certainly seems to have suited me all round.

I am just having a cuppa now before I hit the bed. I really enjoyed my dinner this evening. i cooked 100gr of chicken breast with mushrooms, peppers and spicy peppers in vinegar and served over cauliflower rice. It was really delicious. When I went to the fridge to get the peppers I discovered the dh had used them this morning for his lunch so had to use some peppers in vinegar that I bought in Lidl. They are my new best friend - really added a punch to the dish and made it go zing in my mouth. Overall between dinner, coffees and a sachet of low cal soup for lunch my day has come in at about 480. Well done to all today's fasters. Tomorrow I might try to do a mini fast to make up for last week but will decide in the morning.