5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello everyone. I'm not keeping up and I have a new cold and a new round of sleep torture from the DCs. DS is sort of dropping his daytime nap but for some reason it is super complicated and he is generally being a huge pain! But at the same time I really feel for him because he looks so tired.

But, I am about 3kg down on my start weight and about 2cm lost on all measurements! Hurrah!

I'm an mfp junky confused I'm keeping within the tdee but weekends do go up a bit - but it should all balance out. I'm a desperately slow loser which means I get frustrated and have binges, although I haven't the last 3 weeks. It's just going to be slow, I reckon if I get 2 pounds a month I'll be doing well. Started jogging again plus my 2-4 miles walks every day, with luck it will help over the next few weeks.
Bird sht on my head, down the back of neck, top/jacket. Do we think this means good luck or a bad omen

Hello Dustwitch, fellow newbie! My 2nd FD today. I accidentally picked up a pair of jeans a size too small (only New Look, and they stretch) so they are my first clothing aim.
Miso for emergencies, Marmite on hand (I'd forgotten how much I love it - a definite bonus of FDs) and steamed chicken with 0% fat tzatziki, courgettes and a bucketful of lemon juice, garlic and oregano tonight.
Have a great day everyone/

Posted too soon, the 'incident' happened as I got off the bus so had to walk for 30 mins with no idea how bad it was - what a lovely thing to happen!

Yuck! Apparently it's good luck.

oh dear Not2b! hope it was a -lonely- walk!

I'm finding it incredibly slow losing weight too this time around, though I'm being pretty virtuous. 5:2 worked well pre-preg, it can work again.

Muck for luck or so they say!

FD going ok here so far. I'm starting to think about food a bit now though but mainly because I'm a bit bored.

Ooh Not2 that's good luck! Best buy a lottery ticket
Having a lovely lunch of carrot, hummus and oatcakes and may follow it with some Greek yoghurt with raspberries and honey. Can you tell it's pay day??!

Bullseye on not2b

not2b, Meerka Very slow weightloss almost always means you are averaging substantially above TDEE on NFDs. So you need to cut down on NFDs.
Training yourself to eat within TDEE is also important for maintenance later, so you don't put it straight back on again.
It may be that your real TDEE is lower than what you calculated, e.g. hormone / metabolic issues, overestimating exercise.
Do you eat back exercise cals ? Much more reliable to include it in TDEE only.

Anyway, the calculated figure is an average, so I suggest recalculating TDEE or sedentary or reducing by at least 15%.
If you are still snacking:

Tip and I always recommend: no snacking permanently, for everyone.

MrsWhiskers If you ate the same, but cut out exercise, that would only be likely to cause a slowdown in weight loss. The 2 lb gain may just be a fluctuation, but could also be because your intake rose.

no snacking

If you ate too many starchy carbs, they would retain water. So that could go after an FD.
You said your new contraceptive pills cut out totm. Well, they do that via hormone doses, so that could slightly increase your tendency to store fat, or to hinder burning it.

I did see the GP earlier in the week due to very severe abdominal bloating. I was also advised to increase my usual dose of laxative so I'm hoping the 2lb gain is because my bowel is retaining water due to the increased laxative. (How pleasant ).
I'm going to watch what I'm doing for the next week anyway and cut out the snacking.
on the plus side I managed to complete week 6 of C25K today I can't believe I have come this far in such a short space of time.

Good morning. FD here for me. Always harder when it is cold and dull and grey outside. Will just have to try to drink lots of tea! Will write properly later but children calling!

I've just caved and had a Nakd bar - was losing the plot!

I think the slow loss is usually what sends me off track to be honest BC - my tdee is calculated at my goal weight, activity level set at sedentary. I rarely eat back exercise cals and I can't consistent eat 5 days under tdee and fast 2 days without being utterly miserable - I thought I could in the past and have ended up ravenous. I have 2 days with probably tdee + 20% so that should really be my actual tdee for my weight. Maybe I'm kidding myself but I'd rather accept that there's a possibility my body takes time to lose than always be blaming myself and thinking I have to eat much less. The tdee is 1600, that's not a huge amount and I am active, I walk a good amount, between 8-12,000 steps for 5 days, plus the jogging 3 times a week for around 3 miles at a time (well I've started that and on my third week of it)
Thank you so much for trying to explain what might be wrong, I do genuinely appreciate you taking the time to think about it and try to solve - but maybe I'm not doing something wrong, maybe it's just the way I am

Well done on your c25k MrsWhiskers Great progress with your running

That's so frustrating for you, not2b A very slow loss can naturally lead to getting fed up and exploding off track sometimes.
You may just have to grit your teeth and be very patient, but let's see if there are any more tweaks that could help.

Some thoughts re the hormone / metabolism side:
. Have you had your thyroid checked ?
. Get your GP to check iron levels while you're at it. Many women are deficient, which causes tiredness and can increase the amount they eat.
. HIIT can help metabolic issues that medium steady state doesn't touch. Try adding some Tabata sprint intervals to your jog, say 8 sets of 20 secs sprint alternating with 10 secs jog.
. Also on 5 days per week, do a 5 mins Fat Blast from the 52 ExerciseThread3 OP. Mosely imterviewed scientists who were finding these few mins genuinely improved insulin sensitivity. So it's not that they burn a huge amount of calories, but they improve how your engine burns them.
. Food type: some folk are very insulin resistant and just can't lose unless they low carb. Can you try 2 weeks with unlimited protein & veg, add olive oil, but no starches, fruit or alcohol ?
. Meal frequency. If you snack / graze or have 4 meals per day, you might do better with fewer, larger meals. this is also very much in the IF philosophy. So, say a large lunch and medium breakfast and supper. Or do 16:8 with 2 meals and skip breakfast or supper.

MrsMugoo If you are bored, can you go for a walk, dance in the kitchen to some music, or clear out wardrobes

BigChocFrenzy you really are great the wsy you take the time and care for each and every one of our questions and queries. I took your advise and have decided to postpone my 2nd FD this week until next week. my BP is still a bit low but I did manage a Shred this morning along with my 5km walk. However I may have undone all the good by eating half a tub if tortilla pringles. On the positive side I must really have needed the salt as some of the pressure seems to have lifted from my head so I am not going to feel too bad. I bought a new scales which should improve my tracking and on reflecting on other tips on this thread I have realised that:

1. I need to quit snacking. I may eat lower cal snacks but I would be better off quitting completely.
2. I need to track using MFP as it keeps me honest in terms of what I am actually eating instead if what I like to convince myself I'm eating.
3. I need to be more precise about working out calories - I suspect I may on occasion under estimate.
4. I need to cut myself a break if I falter but I also need to remember the failure is just success postponed.
5. You are all an amazing bunch of motivating, caring and generous women and I thank you all for getting me this far so far.

Thanks BC, I'll aim to add in HIIT into my regime, I have T25, maybe that might be intense enough? I did it for a couple of weeks but had a health setback and they're gathering dust. They deserve an outing
Calfron I love that saying about failure being success postponed, never heard it before, raised a smile in me after a day of being sh*t on - quite literally! On the way home now and mighty tired but have a house to surface clean before I start the Friday night fun. Forecast for tomorrow is grim, might swap parkrun for some time with ShaunT, although I am trying to commit to my Saturday run- oh well it's not like I'll melt if I run in the rain! Have a lovely evening all

I am very wise N2BO

Baloostika
She does not post on this thread anymore but Bossh is most definitely around, most definitely still lean and mean and most definitley still weight lifting.

Not2
Remember that you'll be doing for many, many years without weight loss, what's the odd month here or there

Calfon
I'm sure I've typed this before but
NO SNACKING EVER EVER EVER
Proper meals and proper gaps. Its the only sane way.

TalkinPeace doing things the sane way is taking life to a whole other level for me but hey ho I am willing to give sanity a try

Very wise principles, calfon < impressed >
Now can you follow them < challenge >
Go for it ! Up and at 'em ! < drill sergeant bellow >

MrsWhiskers I wish you a really good morning dump tomorrow

I'm certain I'm not overeating on 6 days of the week - I'm hungry a lot of the time now and mostly eat veggies and meat/tofu protein, sometimes some quinoa, even on NFD. No cookies or sweet things at all and even cutting back on strawberries and raspberries and blueberries. On the 7th I eat only until i've got a full tummy and no snacking.

Pretty sure it's a post-preg change and that simply persisting will help. The weight -is- coming off slowly, as long as there's no spanners in the works like operations or heavy colds or whatever =)

I do moan about it, but I'll get there.

The slower weight loss is frustrating as pre-preg it came off steadily and quite quickly, but I like the clarity of mind that comes with 5:2, the feeling more alive and less sluggish and long term the health benefits have got to be great.