5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm starting today am also in another general weight loss chat thread)
My stats are: 5ft 5 (and a half lol!)
Weight today: 11.6
Have taken inches too.

Go away in 5wks and really want to break past the 11st for once!

My first fast day today. My TDEE comes out at 1963 would I be ok to lower it to say 1600?

I use mfp too.

Hi Salacious, nice to see someone else with a fair amount to lose , looks like you've made a great start.

my first fast day was a 1000 day on Thursday which was not the best start but at least progress on my normal eating. Next one is Tuesday as i've got a work drinks thing tomorrow that I cant face without a few glasses. but i'm feeling much more in the zone now so will aim for a 800 day on Tuesday and start getting into the swing of things.

Big choc what you said about making sure my meals are big enough is a very good point I feel - I think i often cut those down because im trying to limit calories and then i end up snacking more - on poorer quality food. Better to have more protein or veg with my meal in the first place. Makes sense now you point it out.

Welcome to all the new fasters!

Nocarbs is that your sedentary TDEE? Try calculating TDEE for your goal weight if you want to reduce calories on your NFDs too.

Welcome Salacious too - 14 weeks is plenty of time to lose a fair amount!

FD here today and this week I will have been doing 5:2 exactly for a month. I really feel like I've turned a corner in the past two FDs and it's become a lot easier. I really think I could do this for life, at least 6:1. Today I've had my morning cup of tea and water so far and I'm not hungry. Planning to save calories for dinner - Waitrose soup, and probably some cottage cheese and some veg crudites.

I will post weight loss/inch loss stats when I next weigh and measure but there are many other changes I've noticed already after a month. It's becoming a lot easier to not snack. I only eat when I'm hungry, not "just in case" (i.e. I used to think if I was going somewhere for 3 hours early evening and dinner was going to be a bit later, I should eat a snack first just to make sure I didn't get hungry). There is added sugar in lots of things; I've made some simple swaps like only buying natural yoghurt and eating it with fruit instead of buying flavoured yoghurt. I've pretty much entirely cut out sugary drinks although I have half a glass of fruit juice with breakfast on NFDs because I really want it. I haven't entirely stopped eating chocolate or biscuits but I'm much more aware of it. I don't just have a bar of chocolate after dinner because I see it in the kitchen.

A couple of weeks ago I was wondering about Ella Woodward's (of Deliciously Ella) comments that when you eat the right things, you don't need to calorie count. I now see it from the perspective that it's much harder to overeat when I'm eating healthier foods. If I'm having avocado with rye crispbreads, I'm unlikely to want to eat 600 calories worth in one sitting. But if I'm eating Dominos, 600 calories is just the side order and half a container of dip. I only want two or three dates with almond butter, but it's easy to eat several chocolate chip cookies. And so on.

I've noticed I've entirely stopped going to the small Tesco on the way home. Turns out I was only going there for snacky type foods and now I haven't needed any. I think I must have saved some money just stopping that, even if I only spent £5 a week or something, every little helps as they say at Tesco...

I haven't used MFP but I've kept a rough calculation in mind every day. So far it has worked fine and I don't want to stress too much on NFDs. That said, my TDEE is only around 1500 so I do need to be aware of portion size. But actually a lot of the extra calories I was eating before came from snacks and puddings so just dropping those has naturally decreased the amount I eat.

Just some random thoughts, I hope it is helpful to those new to 5:2.

Hello Big Choc. Thanks for the words of encouragement. I decided last night that I would try this and if it doesn't work, a vlcd will be my next option. So woke up today, a bit later than usual and am doing my first fast day.

I have a balanced for you meal from M&S in the fridge which is approx 390 cals, so am planning on going the day on water and cups of tea with a dash of milk and see how I go.

I have weighed and measured myself. I have measured lots of other parts of me just to see where the inches come off if the scales don't move. I started my period today and have been feeling bigger than usual for a few days so hoping its okay to start this WOE today anyway.

My opening stats are:
height : 5'6"
weight : 189.6lbs
BMI : 30.7
BMR : 1519
TDEE : 1822

can I ask a few questions again please?

Is there a benefit of 5:2 over 4:3 or vice versa? Is the idea of 3000 deficit over the week, still the goal?

Is there a way of working out what weight I need to be for a healthy BMI?
In my head I want to be 140lbs which would make me 10 stone.

Is it best to do fast days on consecutive days? or spread out through the week?

If I manage to go the day without adding to the 390 cals in the ready meal, am I going to cause more problems by not sticking to the 500 cal figure?

In terms of TDEE, should I be aiming for that less 20-25% on NFD's?

thanks so much again, for your help. I am very hopeful after starting reading the inspirations thread that maybe this could work.

xxx

chevron, thank you to you too for the warm welcome.

I'm glad someone understands the need to not think about food too. I really hate it as its become an obsession so looking forward to at least a couple of days off.

I'm starting today with a fast day as I woke up later and figure its a shorter day so may as well get going.

thanks again for your kind words. Both you and BigChoc are amazing for taking the time.
xxx

stripey, wow, sounds like you've made lots of very positive breakthroughs! congrats! and good luck for the weighing / measuring day.

I gave up gluten about 14 months ago for health reasons so that helped me with the not snacking when on the go as there's a lot less available without gluten than with.

Hoping this will stand me in good stead on the no snacking front.

Hope you have some more amazing results when you take your stats down. I say more, because I think with any plan the mindset is the biggest thing to change, and it sounds like you're one your way to cracking it. Hoping to be back in a month to report similar changes for me too.

xxx

Thanks Newbiecrafter.

To answer your question from above, the NHS BMI calculator will show the healthy weight range for your height (on the last page after you've gone through the calculator bit). www.nhs.uk/tools/pages/healthyweightcalculator.aspx

Welcome, nocarbs

As you have only a few weeks to your holiday, you could calculate the TDEE if your goal weight and aim for that on NFDs, optionally with one day per week at your current TDEE, to relax a bit.

Newbie New fasters who try to force themselves under 500 cals on FDs may find 5:2 unsustainable, or that they binge on NFDs.

The 3000 weekly deficit is only a calculation of what most folk need for a 1lb loss. It is also the deficit that you would have on a TDEE of 2000 if you reach this on all NFDs.
If you have a low TDEE, your weight loss would probably be slower.

You can aim for goal TDEE on NFDs, if you want to speed things up.
4:3 could also bring faster loss, but only if you don't eat more on NFDs to compensate.

Remember: weight loss is a process over weeks and months. That weight took years to put on and will require time to lose sustainably and healthily.
A moderate program that you sustain longterm loses more than a very hardcore version that you keep crashing out of.

stripy You have learned some excellent new habits in your first month.
Sounds like you now naturally eat a suitable amount for your body, without mfp. If your system works, no need to change it.

"when you eat the right things, you don't need to calorie count"
That's a common myth, which is attractive, but unfortunately isn't backed up by science. It doesn't hold for many folk, who at least need to roughly estimate their intake, until they learn appropriate portion sizes.

Humans have evolved to survive scarcity, not to stay slim in an obesogenic environment.
Avoiding junk removes some calorie bombs and avoids descending into a spiral of carb cravings.
However, many people became overweight just eating too much of healthy food, e.g. nuts, seeds, olive oil, large portions ....

If you are significantly overweight, then you have probably overeaten for years, so monitor your progress. If you don't lose well without mfp, or slow right down after a few weeks, then you need to use it for a while.

A similar myth is small children will self-regulate appetite if allowed free range of all foods Some will, most won't.

Hi BigChoc, thanks again for your help.

I'll try and stick to the 500 cals on FD's and then the TDEE on NFD's and see how I go.

Today has been a bit hard so far as I had chicken biryani last night so very carby. I have been very hungry despite eating normally all day yesterday. I have noticed if I eat a carb rich meal at night, no matter what i've had in the day, I wake up ravenous in the morning, whereas if I eat a lighter meal, I'm less hungry. I think tomorrow I will be less hungry, to start the day but will keep an eye on not going over my TDEE so thanks for the warning.

Also, if today is my FD when should I plan the next one to be? weds or Thursday?

thanks again for your help.

Newbie The evening before an NFD, I recommend protein, veg, complex carbs but starch portions at any meal shouldn't exceed the size of a tennis ball.
Many folk find that more carbs than this, or added sugar or alcohol, keeps their insulin levels raised so they wake up hungry.
Such food also hinders fat-burning during the night, so it delays the effect of the FD.

When breaking your fast the day after an FD, have a moderate sized meal of protein, veg, complex carbs. e.g. veg omelette or porridge & almonds.
Avoid too much juice or fruit on an empty stomach

For FDs, best to choose days when you are busiest, hence less time to think about food. Avoid days when there is a business lunch or social event and if possible avoid days when you have to cook delicious meals for someone else.

If you cook for a family and want to share supper, then put protein, veg, starch in separate dishes, so you just have lean protein and lots of veg, e.g. lean roast & veg, no gravy

So good to have a steady stream of newcomers / converts

the thing with 5:2 is that it was not planned as a weight loss method : that was just a happy side effect
and once, like myself and bigchoc and betsy and B&W and Bssh you suss out the right amount for you over the week, the fast days are the refreshment between the big meals

it is really, really worth using MFP to get your ideas of normal back into kilter with your ideal body size
and its lovely to take the odd week off, knowing that the methods of long term management are all in place

I happily wore a bikini on holiday last week - I'm 50 next week (admittedly, yoga and pilates help)

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I have eaten sensibly today following my first fast - I have a good feeling this will be doable for me. I am looking forward to wearing my summer clothes on holiday, I really do not want to buy size 18 tops.

I am not dreading my next fast day, but will avoid jogging.

BigChoc interesting that we're not programmed to stay slim with plentiful food - I have a suspicion that's why slimmers world doesn't work for me (not to mention I am not good at sticking to the plan). My downfall has been snacking!

Talkinpeace that's fab about wearing your bikini

BigChoc What I meant was that at least for me, by choosing the right foods, I find it easier to avoid overeating. Of course a 1000 kcal worth of quinoa & veg is the same amount of calories as a 1000 kcal worth of Domino's veggie pizza but I would struggle to eat that much quinoa whereas the pizza would go down quite easily.

Of course there are some very high calorie healthy foods like
nuts, avocado and dates but as long as I know that, I'm ok.

It is probably different for everyone, though. I'm back in healthy BMI again and I'm happy with the way I'm eating now.

Woohoo, bikini girl at (almost) 50 tip

BigChocFrenzy - thank you for the GF links. I expect that it might not be too difficult once I get my store cupboard at home in order. The hardest part will be when in an environment that is out of my own control. My DH is Italian and we are going to Italy for a few weeks in the summer - that will be the biggest challenge!

Hopefully, you can politely refuse bread & pasta and load up on veg, salad, oil, olives, fish, fruit etc You should be able to request rice or potatoes as your alternate starch.

The "GF goddess" has Italian Recipes (you can ignore her life history)

Yay TiP. I'm 30 and could never imagine wearing a bikini!

Yes you can, mildly 5:2 and exercise plus patience. Go for it !

NSV (willpower victory - which is very rare for me). Was at a kids birthday party where I didn't know too many people, and the ones I did know were the ones who knew everyone so it was a bit hard to talk to them. My default response used to be wine, and hovering near the chips.

I had one glass of diet coke, a small handful of chips. And Nothing Else. Not even cake. Because I wasn't hungry. While my waistline and weight haven't budged much since my restart of 5:2 after we moved, that is such a difference compared to even 6 months ago.

We're away next weekend, so my plan for the week is

Monday - FD. Porridge for lunch, innocent veg pot for dinner
Tuesday - mini FD. Porridge for lunch. Regular dinner with family.
Wednesday - FD. Same as Monday.
Thursday - mini FD. Same as Tuesday.

Friday we're travelling - first trip away with just DH and myself in 4 years. There will be a nice dinner and there will be wine. I will avoid empty calories at the airport, but otherwise will enjoy myself

Thank you for welcoming me!

Please make me stay, I usually loose willpower but want to crack this!

Will calculate my goal weight and use the kcal for NFD!

Today I had a coffee for breakfast
A green juice for lunch
Then I made a Turkey burger, w/meal roll with salad bits and I feel quite content!

But will go to bed early to avoid snacking!

Thank you again!

Hello, NoCarbs, Salacious, Newbie. I've only been doing this for a few weeks, but already feel healthier. Have a spring in my step and am sleeping better.

What I love the most about 5:2 so far is how much my enjoyment of food has increased. :) I just had a lovely "fruit salad" with my husband, which turned out to be cut-up banana and apple smothered in neapolitan icecream and then chocolate sauce, topped with grated dark chocolate and M and M's (yes, Mr Mildly's idea of health food is a little non-standard. He used to follow the "football diet" in the 90s which seems to have consisted of pasta, jaffa cakes and lucozade. ). Ludicrously sweet and decadent, but I did enjoy it far more than if I'd been pigging out every day, rather than doing FDs and mini FDs Monday-Friday. :)

BigChoc, you are confidence-inspiring, but I don't think exercise is going to do anything about my saddlebags. A million squats, lunges, supermans and deadlifts ago, I'd have believed you. Going to keep exercising and 5:2ing all the same.

One other thing I wanted to know was: how can you eat in the run-up to TOTM to minimise symptoms? Is there some kind of food plan? One of my colleagues mentioned a special low gluten diet which her gynaecologist had recommended but I don't know if it had merit (she's from California so into all kinds of bollocks like cupping and tapping). I really hate getting snippy with my loved ones but the fatigue and rage are real and it would be GREAT to be able to manage this without meds.

Well done on your FD, NoCarbs and for not snacking
You have the power to change your bod. Just stick to 5:2 and be patient with yourself.

Good party NSV, vvv You are learning control and good habits, which should increase your weight loss. Just continue to monitor those NFD meals and eat mindfully, no snacks.