5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

morning all,

weighed in this morning - it wasnt pretty

like the idea of teeth cleaning - I need to break habits in the evening - I really crave something sweet straight after dinner - cleaning my teeth might help break that feeling

Chickpea thing sounds good too - thanks DrinkGirlsFeck

I eat pretty healthy meals, its the snacking and wine that do for me but I've made some better choices the last few days and feel the thread helps me keep what I'm eating in my mind rather than just mindlessly inhaling stuff that I barely register Ive eaten

I've just recalculated my TDEE that explains a lot...

Hey, Trenzalor Was the TDEE a lot lower than expected ?
I suggest mfp for a week, to train yourself what to eat on NFDs for this.

Apple Our wise talkinpeace created one of the most important 5:2 tips:

No Snacking
It can make a significant difference on NFDs: snacks keep your insulin levels raised all day, so
your body is switched to fat-storing instead of fat-burning
Even snacking on fruit raises your insulin - healthy food can slow fat-burning, so just
Don't eat between meals

If you want fruit, or a sweet treat or alcohol, have it part of a meal, as your pud.
Then clean your teeth and close the kitchen until the next meal.

I know, I know. Very deep sigh. Snacking is the work of the devil. It's sounds so easy - no snacking - but u find it so hard. If I could do it I'm pretty sure it would sort me out. I reckon at the moment in having 400 or 500 calories a day j could do without

Tip won't approve but i think my interim solution has to be sugar free gum and fizzy drinks.

Many of us find that Satan's Whizz heads off the snacking urge. In an imperfect world, this is an acceptable alternative - go fizz !
< hopes tip is too busy elsewhere to read this >

You might need to slightly increase meal size - protein & veg especially is much better than sweet junk.

I do MFP. My old TDEE was 2000 and so I thought I was doing well if I stayed under on NFD. My new TDEE is 1700.

I don't snack so that's good. Quitting sugar helps that if anyone else wants to quit snacking.

Stomps into the thread to kick the sweeteners into touch

but seriously, if you need them to adjust, use them, but the sooner you can train your system into no snacking the better.

I've just been in the Caribbean.
There are two body shapes : Lean and rotund.
Nothing in between.

Guess which group were seen to be eating on the street and picking at food and eating processed stuff rather than the amazing local fruit and fish and chicken and veg?

Guess which group started the day with a hot chocolate and some bread and fruit, then nothing till late lunch in the heat of the day of salad and fish and then a supper of vegetables and chicken and beer?

Talkinpeace. Sounds heavenly. I could do with a Caribbean holiday.. heading home from work in the pitiless metro weekend rush after a ludicrous work day and just have my coffee milk calories from this morning in my tummy... feeling a bit sorry for myself, truth be told!

This thread has reminded me not to hit the snacks when I get in but have a decent meal. The blood sugar monster won't, in fact, get me if I wait another hour or two before stuffing myself.

Meerka, take it easy.

Welcome back, Chevron Those compliments are a motivating NSV

Good plan, Mildly Enjoy a satisfying meal instead of a hurried snack. You've learned you won't faint.

Are artificial sweeteners still bad even if they don't encourage you to snack/eat sweet foods?

mrswhiskers
I'm anti them because they encourage you to want sweet in your diet
and there is some evidence that they trick the insulin system into activity ....

better to have real intrinsic sugars like fruit or in my case alcohol

TiP I read something about them tricking the body into thinking it was going to get calories and when it doesn't it goes into fat storage mode.

MrsWhiskers They have zero nutrient value, but masses of studies have failed to prove any dangers. A few people find they cause the munchies.

I use them, so do Errol, Maz ... many others here. Coke Zero, Red Bull Zero ...

No problems known with Stevia, which is a herb - goes well with some food & drink, not coffee.

There is much debate, but scientists disagree.
Sugar: definitely causes cravings and switches you more to fat-burning.
Sweeteners: Most people don't have cravings, but some do
Ideally, you would not need anything sweet except fruit. If you can manage that, excellent. That's the best choice.

IRL, most of us like sweet treats sometimes, so it is a choice of sugar or sweetener.
I usually choose sweetener, because it has fewer calories and does not cause cravings for me, whereas sugar does. e.g. sometimes I have Coke Zero instead of pid or choc

You do what suits your body

teethcleaning helped today. Though I did snack a bit but made a bowl of quinoa cooked in low-salt veg stock cube and when i snacked, I snacked on that. It was our oldest's birthday party and he invited 6 super-'busy' kids ....naturally. Can't get through without something to keep you going! plus the 2nd pancake at the pancake house was actually a salad again ... am goign to try 1000cals monday for sure.

and TiP that holiday sounds amazing.

Hope everyone is doing well.

I have done 3 FDs this week and trying my best to be below TDEE on the other days. On FDs I am sticking to protein shakes or something that is shop bought with calories labelled. I find it hard to compute the calories for things that I cook from scratch, which is 90% of the time. How do you all compute the calories. Like, you weigh every ingredient.. ?!!!

Staying clear of white carbs though on NFD. And teaching myself to tackle my vices: sweets and no snacking (TalkInPeace will be happy to note I guess). I have laid down a rule to myself that I have to sit down to eat anything. I am so used to grabbing snacks (usually sweet stuff) and popping into my mouth barely registering even what I had, and not as part of a meal. Slowly and steadily, I hope I will incorporate all these good habits into my WOE for life.

The rule of no-snacking was reinforced into my head when I read some articles on the low-insulin-state and fat burning mode. I was reading the thread on tips and links (given in the OP at the head of this thread) and Wow, there is such a lot of info in there. I have managed about half way as I started reading the research papers etc etc (the academic in me!)

Among all the things that I read, something that stood out for me which hadn't sunk in so far: ( I am yet to see the original Horizon programme) : the longer you leave yourself in a fasted state, the more the fat burn is likely to be. Of course within limits of reason. One of the articles that I read mentioned that it is more effective if you have all the stipulated calories as one meal and keep up on hydration for the rest of the time. As am an absolute newbie to IF or fasting itself, I am still learning to manage being in the fasted state. So, just as I am at it , I feel I should teach myself to leave the longer gap, or at least am going to try..!

I am so glad at having discovered this WOE and far more importantly for me: stumbling on this thread. I was looking to buy the Kindle version of the Mosley book on 5:2. And rather embarrassingly, I realised that I had bought it ages ago. Just never read it or followed it. That says it all. This time around, despite not having read the book or watched the programme, I have started IF. Yes, am slowly easing into it. But, am super confident that am going to stick to it. And I have this thread as my biggest support. It has become like a bedtime ritual for me to read up before sleep. What a great source of support, tips and a huge repository of links and info. Thanks to all the people who take the time to share their wisdom and knowledge with others and provide encouragement.

I think one day MNet might make a book out all the wisdom gathered here: Like they have a couple of books on parenting using primarily information gathered from posts.. :-)

Hello everyone.

I'm considering 5:2 after a lovely poster suggested it on another thread.

I have tried and failed over the last few years to lose weight. I mostly have stalled at the 10lb mark but then put on that plus more again, each time I have tried.

I am now the heaviest I have ever been, at 191lbs. I am 5'6" and not that big framed. My BMI is 31 which makes me obese. I feel disgusted with myself and need to do something.

I have a daily I tolerance and also have Hashimoto's, which is an auto immune thyroid condition. I also have to take omeprazole as the last diet I tried in Jan which was low carb, seemed to cause me to have really bad acid reflux.

I have tried, slimming world, WW, diet chef, Atkins, LC bootcamp twice and each time I get to 10lbs, very slowly p, and then stall which makes keeping on with the plans very depressing and difficult.

I hate thinking about food and would quite like to just have shakes for a while and just not think about it, but most vlcd's seem to nit be suitable for lactose intolerance.

My question is, does 5:2 absolutely work for everyone? The pros I can see are it could become a way of life and therefore very doable. But I am convinced that my thyroid condition is at the cause of my lack of loss on any plan. I can be really determined and have no probs being strict, but when I stall for weeks on end I lose the will to carry on. It's always around the 10lb Mark.

Also, growing up, I watched my mum fast twice a week, religiously but she is also rather heavy and also has an underactive thyroid so in my head, I have always blamed her fasting for her weight gain. But maybe I aphave been wrong all these years.

So, will it work for me bearing in mind my yoyo history, plus medical issues?

Thanks so much in advance, I am desperate and any advice will be very gratefully received.

Hallo there, Newbie

5:2 works brilliantly if you stick to the rules and has been life-changing for many folk, including some who couldn't lose on any other WOE.
You can read their stories on the Inspirations Thread

Like any weight loss method, it requires some discipline and persistence.
The minority on these threads for whom it hasn't worked are usually folk who for years have eaten far more than their body burns and unfortunately they could not manage to reduce this on NFDs.
Or those who get discouraged and quit if they don't lose every week.

You've a tough collection of problems which obviously make weight loss difficult, but I think you could lose on 5:2 if you are patient.
5:2 can be adapted to most lifestyles and food preferences, because you can eat the type of food you want and avoid what you dislike, only the amounts and timing are important.

So, I suggest you jump in and use tomorrow to prepare:
. Read the OP, at least the "acronyms "and "how to start" sections
. Calculate your TDEE, with activity level set to "sedentary." You ahould aim to stay within this on NFDs.
. Choose any 2 days next week for FDs. Plan and calorie count for about 500 cals on those days. Don't try to go lower.
Many of us have ready meals, soups or shakes, to save counting.

Monday morning: Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
It's a popular day to fast, so why not plan to start then ?
These are lovely supportive threads and I think 5:2 should work for you

Sounds as if you are learning good habits, spg cutting out snacks, reducing sugar and white carbs.
Have you added some HIIT and lifting, to help fitness & fat-burning ?
You should start to notice the difference in clothes fit, if you are keeping to TDEE on NFDs

The most important thing about FDs is sustainability, so don't worry about saving most cals for supper: that is fine-tuning. The best system is the one you can actually do, with about 500 cals every FD.

wrt mfp: that is your training wheels until you learn the amount of food that fits your TDEE.
Expert mfp users will probably post more detail, but I believe you store the calories for each of your various dishes and then when you eat them again, you just tap in the weight to receive the calories and your running total for the day.
So, for each recipe, you need to weigh every ingredient once, before you store that dish permanently

btw, many folk lose on 5:2 without using mfp, but they are the minority who naturally eat about TDEE. So, the FDs automatically give the, a good deficit and weight loss.
You can stop mfp once you are quite sure you no longer overeat.

Hello Newbie and welcome to the thread. I'm fairly new to all this too so don't have the depth of knowledge of bigchoc and others but just wanted to say it sounds like your heads in the right place which is a great start. I started at the end of January and have lost a stone in that time. It has come off in fits and starts but I've also lost inches.

The not having to think about food thing for 2 days a week is a big bonus for me too. I'm not a huge fan of shakes, ready meals etc but have a list of 4 or 5 150 cal lunches and then make and freeze 300 cal veg stews. The joy is you can alter this to your own dietary requirements and style of eating.

Do come back and let us know how day one goes!

Hi, I'd like to join you all - I am 3 stone overweight and tried many weight loss plans.
Yesterday, I tried my first fast day - I've been encouraged to take up the 5:2 diet by my niece who said the research shows there are so many health benefits and everything else has failed: calorie counting, WW, Slimming World; I just can't seem to sustain it for very long.
Did anyone see the BBC programme a while ago when they looked at different types of over-eaters? I am sure I'm a constant craver!
I had 600 calories yesterday but hope to do better next Tuesday, my second day of fasting, and it's a day when I don't work.
I go on holiday in 14 weeks time and I do not want to look like I did in last year's photos! I hope to lose a stone by that time and it will be a start. Also I am training to do the Race for Life.
Look forward for chatting with you, I'm off to read the thread thoroughly as there are some great suggestions and motivation. Today, I had a good breakfast, poached eggs on toast with mushrooms and I don't feel hungry at all, so I am also going to try my best to stay at 2000 calories on NFD.

Welcome, Salacious You can lose a significant amount in 14 weeks, including inches.

Well done on starting r2l training. 600 cals is a decent start at fasting
Plenty of info, including possible health benefits, in the OP.