5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello all new people :) so good to hear about everyone doing so well!

NSV today. Out for dinner for PiL's anniversary and I actually ate a sensible portion for my size :)

mildly Diet and exercise genuinely work - science and experience here prove that. You can do this.

HIIT and Fat Blasts burn away fat to reveal the healthy lean muscle from lifting / resistance training
And tip can explain how she went from stones overweight to bikini at 50 !

totm
Totm hormones lower the levels of insulin and serotonin ( the feel-good neurotransmitter)
Women then crave carbs and sugar to raise these levels. However, you need to act in a controlled way, to avoid worsening PMT and weight gain.

So, around totm:

. Increase protein
. Eat complex carbs - quinoa, porridge, brown rice - and beans instead of junk carbs
. Eat fruit, nuts, seeds, avocado instead of choc, sweets, cake, biscuits ...
. The above measures will also increase magnesium levels, typically lower at totm
. Try to cut out alcohol. Trust me, it may initially feel good, but it does worsen symptoms & weight gain
. Exercise and keep moving, especially take a brisk walk in the sun

Well done on your NSV, Squiggle

calfon
when faced with a full on Italian buffet, serve yourself the tricolore salad first - but one piece of Mozzarella for every 4 of tomato
then hit the green salad
then hit the high protein stuff like lean meat and fish and chicken
and then the pasta / risotto / gnocchi have to squeeze into the teeny corner of the plate that is left
and the bread has to hang off the side
bingo - a huge plate of food that is wall to wall healthy
now, look at your other family members, especially the slimmer ones - see something familiar

mildly
fat across the back of the hips is best dealt with using yoga and pilates : it works

if I'm feeling brave I'll post a pic from last week

Many women manage better without bread at totm, but at least make it wholegrain and don't have it with jam or marmalade, but say with egg, pnut butter or Marmite

Thanks, BigChoc. (Seriously, you'regreat. ) My usual PMT would start a week from now but I am going to get an early start and try to cut out the junk in the next two weeks and focus on carbs being complex ones. Just as soon as I figure out what a quinoa is.

So simply losing weight is the golden ticket to losing the awful cellulite/saddlebags, do you think? When I think of the hours I've spent bodybrushing, and using Nivea anti-cellulite cream, and shuffling into the kitchen on my bum.

Squiggle, you're my heroine! My inlaws always have me reaching for the carbs and wine.

tip Great advice for lovely Italy.
As Calfon is GF, I don't know if she can tolerate bread or a little pasta

Thanks, TiP- have been thinking of getting back into yoga. There are just so many different types though that I get dazzled by the choice.

mildly I know that feeling, MiL is very thin but a total feeder instead of letting her feed me I need to just have what she's having!

mildly Quinoa is a very healthy alternative to rice. It is glutein-free and contains the full profile of amino acids, so is high protein.

Cellulite creams reduce your wallet, but have little influence on your cellulite.
Brushing can help slightly, but the most effective measure is reducing body fat to a healthy level.

Hello all,
I've managed to completely undo my good week with a monster weekend. We've been out for three meals and had 2 kids parties. As a result I feel bloated and exhausted.

But I'm back on a FD tomorrow and I'm going to try a couple of mini FDs as well. We have a big weekend next week aswell so I need to bank more calories!
I've also failed to get any runs in, which is rubbish.

A FD tomorrow will reset you, moo. We all have Those Weekends, glad its not getting you down! :)

Don't worry, Moo Most of us need the Monday FD reset button.
Good plan to bank extra with the mini-FDs when you have a lot of social events.

Just (nearly!) finished my first week of 2 FAst days. Have tried before but always managed to blow it on the second day. Just wanted to share! And not to eat that bar of choclate I know is in the fridge.......

Go you, Akire! Moo, also looking forward to a much-needed reset day tomorrow. :)

quinoa will be on my shopping list when I come back to England later this month!

a quinoa ought to be one of a flock of small flightless birds really ... at least that's what it sounds like to me.

More seriously do cook it enough mildly or it's still too crunchy, and with something else to give it a bit of flavour. I am getting to used to cooking a small dishful with with a low-salt veg stock cube in the morning and then snacking on that if I really can't stop myself from snacking. Specially if we've run out of carrots.

Might a health food shop near you have some? I was amazed to find some in the local supermarket here, given how many staples they don't stock (netherlands)

Welcome to all who have joined the thread recently. This is a great great place to ask for advice and get encouragement.

BigChoc, thanks for your reply. Yes, I am doing HIIT and weight training, twice a week at the moment but hope to get it to 4 times.

I started at the beg of April then had a 10 day break as we went away and DD's school break etc. Got back to it last week. I am not expecting miracles. I have had PCOS in the past and when I asked the GP some months ago about having tests for it, her response was that it might be better to work on losing weight as that in itself can fix PCOS. I think her point was that though PCOS makes weight loss difficult, it is not impossible.

Though I have about 2 stone to lose to get to a healthy BMI, for me, it is the extra health benefits that matter and far more importantly, the healthy habits for life that are getting imbibed gradually..and becoming so much more aware of the choices, calories consumed etc! Today, I was getting a double espresso in the gym ( I don't like milky coffees) and as I was waiting I took a coconut macaroon (a small-ish single one) and it had 330 calories..!! I was astonished..And the muffins in Costa..some of them at 430 calories..And there I was, not long ago, mindlessly snacking on them before my coffee, simply because i was used to the idea of having something with my coffee.

I used to be really really scared of staying hungry. Not afraid of collapsing because of hunger. But, because I get severe migraines and for me, staying hungry was one of the triggers or at least so I thought..! But, increasingly, am feeling that it probably might not be the case. As touchwood, apart from the initial few FDs, headache hasn't bothered me. And I am using the 1tsp of soy sauce medicine if I feel a headache coming along and that works. Thanks BigChoc for that tip

Spg - I have pcos too, and while I'm not sure that losing weight exactly fixes it (I wasn't overweight when diagnosed just subfertile and spotty), it's definitely better if you don't have excess weight. The syndrome seems to be linked to insulin resistance so the health benefits of 5:2 may be particularly relevant.

Hello everyone, great to see so many new posters!

This thread is wonderful for advice; I catch up on it every day even if I cannot post all that often. I am still on the bandwagon, managing 4:3 mostly without difficulty, apart from finding NFDs really rather hard. TiP's and BigChoc's advice here made me realise it is all due to my snacking. I am quite good at keeping portions sensible and making healthy choices at mealtimes, only to then blow all the spare calories on snacks - healthy or unhealthy, I am not too fussy. The result is that staying within my TDEE seems almost impossible and the more I eat the more ravenous I become. MFP gave me a bit of a wake-up call; even though I was only overeating by 100-200 kcals a day, my snacks could total more than half of all the calories consumed.

Predictably, even while doing 3:4 my weight loss stalled somewhat this week due to constant snacking on NFDs. Therefore, my new plan is to do ADF for a week or two, since I am finding FDs a doodle at the moment, and restrict sweet junk to two days a week. I am also banning snacks. Fingers crossed my appetite readjusts itself again.

Mildly and BigChoc, just wanted to add that cellulite does indeed disappear as one improves one's body composition. I watched helplessly as my thighs rapidly turned the texture of magnified cottage cheese during my last pregnancy, but losing the weight now really helps the dimply wobble disappear without any magic creams. Very much looking forward to dusting off the bikinis for my holiday in June.

TiP, I'd love to see pictures from your Caribbean holiday! I also completely agree with you advice wrt yoga, it is wonderful for waist definition and somehow melts all that stubborn back fat.

Mildly, I think the best way to work out which yoga style may suit you is to give a few local classes a go and see which feels good/is convenient. A hatha yoga class is always a good place to start, then you can move onto fitness/vinyasa/Ashtanga yoga if you want a quick-paced workout or try a more restorative yoga such as Iyengar. I can completely see how the choice of classes can seem overwhelming. However, the advantage of all that choice is that you should be able to find a workout which suits you very well. Inspired by BigChoc's advice I recently discovered there are HIIT yoga workouts all over youtube and will give them a go this week on top of my normal routines.

I was quite a committed couch potato with no regular exercise routine before I discovered yoga; I'd really recommend it to people who dislike other forms of traditional fitness, such as team sports or gym training. In the past, exercise always seemed like a bit of a punishment to me. Yoga helped me to see it as a way of spending time and attention on loving and healing my body.

Enough evangelising for one post. Best of luck to all the Monday fasters!

Well done on your FDs, Akire That choc bar could be pud after lunch tomorrow, say

Good lifestyle NSVs, spg You've boosted exercise and learned that coffee nibbles are multi-hundred cal bombs.
They are basically anti-nutrients that just raise your insulin levels, to store fat.

PCOS is related to insulin metabolism, so regular exercise and reducing fat around your waist should help reduce symptoms.
Fasting and HIIT both tend to improve insulin metabolism

PCOS generally means slower weight loss, so you need patience, but you can still achieve your weight and shape goals.

oneorg Well done for mfp tracking and seeing how your NFD snacks mount up. OK, let's see what we can do to help NFDs:

You feel hungry, because you are eating so often that your insulin levels always remain high.

Any carby junk will worsen this, so restrict sugary stuff to 2 days per week, then only as your pud.
Try to lower the GI of your food by swapping to complex carbs: wholegrain bread, quinoa, brown rice.
Also, lower your carb, with smaller portions of starches, only 1 portion of fruit per day. Boost protein, veg, healthy oil. Add avocado, unsalted nuts.

If nearly half your cals are snacks, then you need to increase your meal size. It may be you are aiming for too low a daily limit, then crashing out. You are used to snacks, so 2-3 meals may not be enough.

I suggest, as a start, you divide your TDEE by 4 and aim to eat this at each of 4 meals.

As soon as you finish a meal, get up and clean your teeth, leaving the clearing up until afterwards.

NO snacking, wait until the next meal.
If you feel tempted, have a big drink of water, maybe fizzy water, then go dor a short walk, or do a chore.

I'm so sorry for jumping right in as I realise this is an ongoing thread. But a couple other posters directed me here after I posted my own thread asking for some support / accountability for getting back in my usual routine of 5:2 which I haven't followed since Feb. So hello as a first step, and I hope I can find support here but also be of support to others.

Morning everyone,

So I completed my first fast day yesterday. The day itself was fine and I saved my calories for the evening meal, but had about 3 cups of tea and water the rest of the time.

I found I couldn't really sleep,last night as I think I was hungry. Apart from the dash of milk in my cups of tea, the meal I had last night was on 384 calories, so I will have to try and find some other, healthy, low cal options to pad that out.

I have woken up super hungry today, so need to figure out a protein based breakfast as my usual GF toast has none. I think I need to find a protein based shake that's suitable for lactose intolerance.

The plan today is to stick to my TDEE, of 1822, which sounds like quite a lot for a 'diet' so feeling good about it so far.

So, thanks again for the support yesterday. Hope everyone has a happy Monday.
Xxx

Hi Newbiecrafter
I'm also new to this thread so glad to see there's others just starting. (Although strictly speaking I'm not new to 5:2 as I started back in september, cont until feb and then am restarting now).

You are very welcome, Stillloving Post whenever you want support or advice

Good luck in achieving your aims.

Well done on your 1st FD, Newbie
Yes, nightime hunger is one reason why I recommend eating your full 500 FD cals. You could add a mound of veg and increase the protein, e.g. add an egg or tin of tuna. Avoid sweet things on FDs, as they are usually higher GI.

For your 1st NFD meal, how about a veg omelette, or porridge with almonds, or peanut butter and toast ?