5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

NFD here and a small NSV. went out for lunch and chose a salad bowl when before I'd have picked pizza and chips. only took what I felt I needed rather than overloading the bowl and then shared a cake with DC. before I would have bought 2 cakes, had one for me and half that DC left as well. Not having dinner tonight as I'm still full from lunch.
MFP the salad, cake and a coffee and it was almost 1000 calories

Oslo Wash a carrot, a raw pepper, a stick of celery. Eat and chew thoroughly. Optionally eat a hard-boiled egg afterwards.
Avoid fruit and starchy carbs, because raised insulin levels worsen PMT

Good lifestyle NSV, MrsWhiskers and well done for mfping. You wouldn't have estimated the salad, half a cake and coffee had so many cals.
Cake is always a calorie bomb, but salad dressing can have 200 cals - try to swap to balsamic vinegar on FDs or viniagrette, on NFDs. Bacon & cheese toppings, or fried crutons can also add 100s

oslo I've just discovered 0% fat natural yoghurt which is only around 100 calories a pot and really filling. The fat containing ones are around 150 cals a pot. They are quite high in protein too.

Those videos sound good - thanks for the recommendation.

Oslo, I always need protein with pms. chickpeas work well. I sweat garlic, fresh ginger and ground cumin in a spritz of oil, add chickpeas (not sure of calorie count, sorry) and a little water. Cook until liquid nearly gone then stir in spinach and fresh coriander.

FD today. Really not too bad. 150 cal soup for lunch and I've just had a boiled egg pot (100). So a whole 250 cal left for some soup and fruit for supper. Little win was going into hotel chocolat to buy a gift and managing not to cave...

Thanks everyone? I was off being outraged by random things. I had some raw courgette and will get some celery and carrot now. I do have chickpeas and 0 per cent greek yogurt so I should be safe. I had no idea about PMT starch and insulin.

SaucefortheGander welcome! You don't have much weight to lose. I was in a similar position to you, not overweight, but 9 stone 12 at 5'8" and I wanted to lose a stone. I lost it with 5:2 in 6 weeks a couple of years ago, and have kept the weight off due to the WOE so it is definitely possible. If you can do exercise at the same time it will reduce your body fat and give you a better shape, Big Choc's thread is definitely worth checking out. My body fat is now 14% instead of 22% due to sport, and my body a lot more toned. Exercising also helps keep the weight off once you have reached your goal. Good luck!

Around 14% is fantastic for any female , Anglaise especially a lady in her middle years

DrinkGirlsFeck I am now tucking into you delicious chickpea suggestion. Thanks!

Sunburnt and jetlagged TiP drags herself back in the door.

Laska it has to be said that these big threads are the best place to stay motivated. Every time I start to feel complacent I read the posts of newcomers and remind myself what a wonderful discover 5:2 has been.

I feel right flabby at the moment, but I also know I've not gained weight, just lost tone.
That and an absolute killer 15k walk up and down mountain steps has left me, DH and our kids shin sore to the nth degree

To all those I've not greeted properly, these threads are better than any paid for club anywhere, bigchoc is our auntie/drill sargeant
and yes, I'm a bit of a fascist about sweeteners and snacking

< waves to tip >
Sounds like a glorious vacation. Have you entered your 2nd half-century too ?
Time to work your muscles, that woman ! We don't do wimpy "toning" here. Use 'em or lose 'em
Quick march tomorrow to the gym and report back [drill sergeant bellow]

LOL
birthday is on Thursday .... crunches begin again in the morning

Hello! can I jump on board please? I've been lurking but due to computer issues couldn't log in until today.
All the tips, stories and support on the various threads have been great and I'm hoping I can do as well as all of you.
I don't have much to lose.i am 5'8" and was about 10 stone 4 lb last year. I did 5:2 and lost about a stone and felt much better for it but I got a virus then glandular fever so thought I should stop. I've only just got the motivation to start again. my starting weight this time was 9st 8. I'm in my third week and only lost 1.5lb. I found fed ok until yesterday's which was so hard and I don't know why. I stuck with it but today I feel I've eaten too much. I can't do map due to phone computer issues which I'm trying to sort but have been very careful. I've also started hit exercise this week.
sorry for the ramble.guess I just feel my enthusiasm waning. On the plus side I have seen my shape change a bit. I think as I've not got much to lose it will be slow and tough and I'm concerned I'll take a "that will do attitude" and give up!

fd not fed!

Welcome each - don't forget that even if you're not losing much weight, 5:2 was invented as a way to improve health. That's one of the reasons I decided to try it and why I'm happy to take it steady.

Welcome, Peach

Sorry to hear about your glandular fever last year. You were absolutely right to stop fasting then.
Well done for only gaining 4 lb since then, while presumably not being able to exercise much.

Your starting BMI was only 20.4, so you may lose very slowly indeed. Other folk who teached your BMI lost about 1lb per month, so that 1.5 lb was a good initial loss, which may slow down further.
To continue to lose, you would probably need to be strict about NFDs

• I suggest keeping within your TDEE calculated for sedentary. Don't try to reduce FDs below 500.
• Also, try to restrict sugary treats and alcohol to 2 days per week.

Can you pinch more than an inch ? If so, reducing your waist should be the target for health & shape, rather than weight.
If not, do you need to lose weight ? Maybe you just need to improve your body composition (% fat, % muscle) which has probably deteriorated after that long debilitating illness.

I suggest you add HIIT and resistance exercise to build up fitness and muscle tone. This will improve health and shape.

Hi errol and thanks for the welcome. yes that's a good point. it's one of the reasons I started on it so I must remember that. Actually I do feel better on it creaky joints less stiff and skin is clearer. I did feel like I had loads of energy too but not the last couple of days. I maybe need to look at other reasons I'm tired (and go to bed now ).
I will enjoy a healthy weekend and prepare for Monday fd. Thank you!

Hi BCF. so weird to be chatting to you after reading all the old threads . I'm a bit in awe
glad I did the right thing but it's made it very hard to start again. One positive from being ill is that I've lost my tolerance for alcohol so I barely drink now (which is a big change and a reason for keeping most of the weight off I think).
I will step away from the scales and focus on it being a wol rather than a quick fix.
I can pinch more than an inch on my waist although already I can see it has reduced.strangely though, seeing an improvement makes me more aware of the remainder and impatient to get rid of it!
I think I do need to change the composition and I'm guessing that will be through exercise?
I did a 20min workout of hiit exercise to a youtube video I found (don't have the exercise book yet). it's made me feel better after a sluggish day!

Hello, each! Great username. Workout sounds terrific, go you!

Really missing dieting and exercise, never expected to find a diet I'd miss but I am. taking bloody ages to get over the op.

Sorry to hear your recovery is dragging, Meerka Has your doc said when you should be able to start gentle exercise ? How about short walks ?

Try to eat clean to within sedentary TDEE, to maintain. If possible, eat more veg and reduce your starchy carbs, because you are not burning them for fuel. Avoid the tempting whispers of the cake tin and the cabinet, because they could set you back.

Yeah the veggies have gone down because I've not been able to shop as much and husband isnt quite as much of a veg fanatic as I've become. The wine isnt doing very well either, there's been a few pretty stressful things happening and without the diet to keep me on the straight and narrow I'm making a few unwise choices in the evening. Really is unwise, I know, since alcohol affects you in a number of ways. The cake tin fortunately is untouched. There are still easter eggs lying around though unfortunately! although, er, less than there were ...

maybe swimming next week would be okay. The purple iodine is still all over my legs but oh well :) (not sure how to get rid of it except letting it wear off, shampoo and soap doesn't work).

it's mainly the lovely feeling of a clear head and of that pleasant faint ache after a good session at the gym, really looking foward to getting them back again. Swimming next week tho!

Meerka I suggest 14:8, where the 14 hr eating window closes right after supper - that's a big danger period for nibbles.
As soon as you have eaten supper, let your OH clear up while you clean your teeth and rinse with Listerine etc
In fact, clean your teeth after each meal, to help avoid grazing / snacking tendencies.

Do you feel able to start with 1000-cal FDs, like the BFers ? You can ease gradually in over a few weeks before trying 500 FDs
Anyway, enjoy your swimming next week

hm. another good idea that, trying 1000 cal days. Don't feel ready for 500 but 1000 should def be doable. plus 14: 8. Thanks.

I suggest a weigh-in tomorrow morning, Meerka if you haven't already done so. Just to get a post-op baseline to check your future progress.

Hello, hello. Can't believe how fast this thread is moving. I've had a quick skim read to catch up and remotivate me after a looong 2 week absence.

So I've had 2 weeks of no FDs, kids off, Easter treats, a holiday, wine, meals out, horrid cold, TOTM and did I mention wine. I approached the scales this morning feeling rather bloated and anxious but I've only put on 3 lbs! Also had some nice comments from friends who had noticed I'd lost weight.

So my plan is a few days of healthy eating until the cold clears then right back into fasting and some exercise.