5:2 Thread number 52: If you want to be delivered from temptation, but would like it to keep in touch ... join us to lose weight & improve health while still enjoying good food & wine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9
FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

You might also find that you have lost weight if you weigh after your second fast day this week.

Thanks Mrswhiskers, I was using MFP but then fell off track with doing it over the weekend, so back on the wagon now!

Good luck on your FD, Dognado
It takes at least a couple of weeks to get used to fasting. It helps to concentrate on protein & veg. What have you planned today ?

Re NFDs: Weight loss for almost everyone is dependent on the deficit from reduced calories over the week, about 3000 cals for a 1lb weekly loss.

I know some folk hate counting calories, but that is the only way to check exactly how much you are eating, identify calorie bombs and decide where to cut down.
So, you need either mfp, or ready meals, u til NFDs are under control.

NFD Tips to try:

. Cut out snacking & grazing because these keep your insulin levels raised and makes you hungrier.
Eat proper meals. If you want a treat, plan it as your pud and have a sensible portion.

. Use smaller plates. Don't clear your plate if you are not hungry.
Chew your food properly and mindfully. Try not to eat in front of the TV
Don't eat out of boredom; go for a walk or do a chore.

. Boost protein, especially oily fish like mackerel, salmon.
Eat more veg and drink water with meals.

. Restrict alcohol & sweet treats to 2 days per week and only 1 glass / portion on each of those days.
Such foods & drinks are calorie bombs which also make you hungrier, so a vicious spiral.

. Cut out fruit juice completely and don't have more than 2 portions of fruit per day. Veg is better. Try to replace bananas / pineapple with lower GI berries, apples, plums

. Swap from white carbs to complex, to stay fuller longer, e.g. quinoa instead of pasta, brown rice instead of white, wholegrain bread.
Especially swap breakfast cereals to porridge or eggs

Dognado keep on keeping on. It does get easier.
Damn, that was a good gym session! Pushed myself hard, managed ti completely disregard the fact that it's a FD so I will no doubt be eating my own arm later.
Worth it though. I feel great!

Great workout, confused Your bod will thank you

Can anyone answer my question about protein?
The Mosely book says that we shouldn't be eating too much protein on NFDs. Does this apply to plant and dairy proteins too?
I'm a vegetarian and was having weak achy spells when I exercised. I was advised on the exercise thread (by bigchoc I believe) to eat more protein rich foods and combine different foods to aid iron absorption. since I have done so I've not had the aches (thanks BC ) but I'm eating a lot of lentils, pulses, eggs, nuts etc and I'm worried it may be too much.

Dognado I took about 3 or 4 weeks to start doing 5:2 properly. I started over Christmas so I did the fast days but ate way over my TDEE on the other days. It meant that in January when I stuck to TDEE I was pretty used to the fast days. I'd learnt that I did better with one evening meal and that I could cope with the hunger pangs (which were fleeting, also a shock!)

You are still getting the other benefits from fasting even if you overeat on other days.

Once you do start following your TDEE you will be pretty amazed how you can stick to it. I think that it was my NFDs that helped my weightloss more than the FDs. I use to eat so much more but I feel more satisfied now. I'm no longer grazing. I really notice what I eat and savour it.

Dognado I am in exactly the same place as you! I'm another who's just left SW because although I was losing weight I was learning bugger all about controlling my food intake (unlimited pasta anyone?) and I'm hoping this is the plan for me as it seems a more sustainable approach than diets with restriction.

I have also had 2 half-baked attempts at fast days but I'm on a normal day today and using MFP to count with just until I feel in control of the amounts that I should be eating rather than how much I want to eat!

MrsWhiskers The amount of protein is controversial, but only as regards health, not weight loss: Almost everyone who lowers protein finds they raise starchy carbs, which tends to be fattening.

Some scientists think lower protein is beneficial for longterm health. However, the most beneficial thing is to get down to the correct weight and also to fast.
For most people, higher protein on FDs makes them sustainable.

My advice: take it one step at a time. First, get to goal weight. Then if you like, experiment with lower protein

btw, the health concerns about protein are heavily weighted by red meat and processed meats, added nitrites etc.
I usually recommend boosting fish, because all the scientific reports I have read suggest that fish is beneficial for health.

Most scientists advocating lower protein are also influenced by vegan and environmental concerns, which is very worthy, but I'm prioritising my well-being as an omnivore.
The low-protein advice seems a development of the now discredited low-fat diets: there is a determined agenda to scare us away from eating animals and towards high carbs.

Thanks BC
I don't think I'm overdosing on protein but I may pay more attention to grams of protein in foods for a week to see if I'm within the normal ranges. I'm certainly eating a whole lot more protein now than when I was a meat eater. I'm a relatively new vegetarian and had an awful diet until I decided to change my lifestyle at the start of the year so I'm still on a journey to improving my overall nutrition and health.
As I am now maintaining my weight my focus is on exercise and nutrition. These threads really are invaluable with their wealth of knowledge and advice!

Ariff!! Total fast day fail.. First time looking after Dc and making cakes for school and pizza for tea. All just got too much...

Tired, lacking energy ? Get your iron levels checked
(yes, it could just be because your DC keep you awake !)
Female runners are especially vulnerable, but a US Study showed 9-11% of all girls & women of child-bearing age have iron deficiency, with or without anaemia.

Errol, do you have the recipe for coconut Dahl - sounds lovely! FD today, feeling a bit grumpy and planning some nice food for tomorrow

Glad to see the back of FD today. It's so much harder when I'm not working. I managed to stastat at 500cal though, so that's good. Just had a huge hot & sour soup which was mainly water. Trouble is, there was so much liquid I feel sure I'll not have lost it all by tomorrow morning (weigh day). Oh well. Hopefully it'll have gone by next week!

MadAunt, its a recipe MrsWhiskers posted upthread, but I've just copied it into the Recipes thread. Its healthy tasty comfort food!

Thanks Errol, will definitely try tomorrow, and I'll look at the other recipes - getting a bit bored of my usual!

Well done on managing that FD, confused
Don't worry about the volume of water in your soup affecting the weigh-in tomorrow. It'll be long gone: Water takes 5-60 mins from mouth to excretion. It won't take much extra time at the start, to separate the water from the soup.

Not feeling great about my weight, I seem to have plateaued- I keep dipping below 70kg, I was at 69.4 on Friday (although this had been 70.4 before my run) then by Tuesday I was at 71.4. I had been being so good over the weekend and despite a couple of chocolate hiccups had been eating really well. So anyway I am feeling super fed up about it all. DH insists I have changed shape and someone said the other day when I did school drop off in my running gear that I am 'looking a amazing' but that just managed to annoy me because it sounded so gushy and it also suggested I was looking bloody awful a few months ago. I have only lost an inch max in any area, including my waist, some places I have lost nothing and I have only lost half an inch from each thigh which is where I neeeeeeed to lose it I am such a pear shape. My biggest problem is that I am sooooo hungry at bedtime that I just cannot cut out the bedtime cereal and is suspect that is what is preventing me from losing.

I have been flitting around the 70kg for a month or so now. I felt so discouraged this evening I ate another bowl of cereal so I am over my 500 cals now (prob about 700-750) so now I feel like I have wasted a whole days effort with fasting. Rubbish! Just going to have to find more time to do exercise. What is this 30 day shred everyone keeps mentioning?

I ran on the treadmill and it says 279cals burnt, so maybe I will break the rule today and allow myself to have 'eaten back' the cals today as a one-off. Feeling soooo annoyed with myself!

I lurked early in the year and managed some 16:8 days to reconnect with the feeling of hunger not being the end of the world. I drifted off the thread, my clothes got tighter still and after a horrible sighting of my swimsuited self in a mirror at the baths this weekend, I impulsively managed my first fast day yesterday. It wasn't so bad! Maybe closer to 600 calories but still way less than normal. Stuck to egg, ham, cuppa soup and salmon with greens and salad for tea. I was probably a bit generous with my milk in tea, and I had some mixed beans in my salad which were meant to pacify DH but the next one on Friday I'll be better prepared for the feeling of it and with my provisions. Luckily no headache due to the great advice to have fluids and salt (that just about sums up cuppa soup!) and I got to sleep easily.

Elsa, I've always liked a bedtime snack. On fds I just have a big mug of milky tea; nfds I might have a little bowl of Greek yog fruit and some almonds and seeds or a crisp bread and cheese - perhaps a bit less carby than cereal. But then I don't have breakfast the next day so while it may not be ideal it doesn't seem too bad.

30 day shred is a DVD with 3 workouts which take about 20 mins and combine strength, cardio and abs intervals. The idea is to do it 5 or 6 days a week, about 10 days per level. The first level should be available on YouTube if you want to take a look to see if it appeals. It's what started my exercise habit!

Thanks BigChoc. You were quite right, all the water had gone and I've lost 1lb. I'm a bit impatient to lose more, but if I think about it logically I know that a slow loss will be more likely to stay off. And anyway, I am keen to stick to this WOL for good, so what's the hurry?!
Hi fusspot, well done on your FD! It'll only get easier now!!
You must feel annoyed with yourself Elsa, but long experience has taught me that weight loss is a long game and the odd blip is inevitable. IME it involves a chance of mindset from "Oh God, I'll never be able to do this", to " I am doing this. Tomorrow is another day and now I can re-focus on my goal". 750cal is hardly going to sabotage your weight loss.

Hi everyone - today is my first FD!

I'm a religious MFP user and lost 25lb using that WOE/WOL a couple of years ago and maintained for a while but then had a baby and put the whole lot back on.

Have lost 10lb since Xmas with no exercise and just a modest cut to my TDEE so figured now I'm back in the disciplined mindset I would try my hand at 5:2 and here I am

I'm planning spinach & mushroom egg white omelette, a co-op salmon and egg protein pot and some soup. MFP says that is just over 500 cals so let's see how I go.