5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks stripeytees! Will get some tuna in and make some lentil soup I think... :)

Carbe Stress affects weight according to whether folk an't eat or comfort eat. Try to nurture yourself physically & emotionally with nutritious eating, early nights and reduce stress with exercise.

moo On evenings you go out, why not try zero-cal fasting until then: knowing you'll have a lovely supper is a great help during the day. One big meal usually keeps calories to a mini-FD, or at least well below TDEE.
Do remember to wait until the 2nd course before alcohol though, to avoid getting tipsy.

Sqiggle Fish are super-healthy protein: e.g. cod fillets, sea bass, tilapia, salmon & smoked, mackerel, tinned tuna (in brine)
Chicken breasts, turkey mince, lamb cutlets, beef joint
Chorizo is great with chick peas & butternut squash in a Stew
Good protein Recipes
Try to make your carbs complex to feel fuller longer. So add quinoa, sweet potato, brown rice, wholegrain bread to your list. And plenty of veg and salad.

MrsWhiskers Maintaining is great, just see how you go the next few months; on any WOE, folk often find it tougher than losing.
On longterm maintenance, weigh yourself every week, so you can immediately address any gain.

Good luck for Tuesday, Spg Give yourself time to get down to 500 cals, no stress.

I'm trying Bigchoc managed a small dinner again tonight even though I didn't want it. I'm normally an emotional eater in normal life but when something like this hits me I physically find it so difficult to just swallow - it's as if the anxiety sits in my throat and won't let me eat so I don't have any appetite.

Yes to exercise - I'm going to try and get back at it tomorrow. I've walked for around 2 hours daily these last few days but I can feel it's not enough to occupy nor satisfy my brain. I'm attempting tonight to sleep without a sleeping tablet - I thought taking one for the last few nights was the lesser of two evils - I'd have been awake all night worrying and smoking without them but I can't rely on them all of the time, so fx I nod ff naturally.
Good luck all who are fasting tomorrow, hope you all have a great Monday x

carbe I keep RTD (ready to drink) protein shakes in my fridge, e.g. Atkins low carb from Boots. They are quick & easy if you can't be bothered with a meal, at least keeps your protein topped up.
Also the Innocent vanilla smoothie bottles or a tub of Greek yog and some nuts

Hopped onto the scales this morning and I'm 1.35kg or just under 3 pounds lighter after 8 days of 5:2 (3 FDs as I fast on Sundays). I gather that's about as much I could have hoped for with a starting BMI of 25.7.

I'm going out for lunch today so hopefully it won't all be undone... planning to skip dinner to hopefully balance things out.

That's really good stripy :) well done!

Fast day here to reset after the weekend - still a slight loss even after all the cheesecake and chocolate so I'm 3kg down 2.5 weeks in :) rather proud right now! (That's 6.6lbs apparently...)

Thanks so much to you all for the support, its really helping :)

Boo. So after week one, I'm actually 4lbs up. And I've just finished my period...
I really don't know what to do to loose this weight. It's really starting to get me down.

Congrats on your SV, squigglehead You're on your way to you goal.

Well done on your SV too, stripy That's right, you are nearly at healthy BMI, so you won't lose as quickly as those with a few stone to go.
If you keep within TDEE on NFDs, you should lose around 1lb per week, or less if your TDEE is low.

moo You may lose water weight this week , to come down to no change.
However, I recommend you mfp for a week, to check if you are exceeding TDEE: mfp has shocked folk of all sizes & activity levels by revealing how much more they eat than they realised.

Morning everyone.

Have decided to do an unscheduled FD today as I still feel bloated and ill after the weekend. Have just completed day 1 of week 2 of C25K and found it pretty tough going. still, no pain no gain as they say and I'm on holiday next week so trying to squeeze a bit of extra exercise in before then.
Good luck to all the Monday fasters.

FD today. But I'm feeling absolutely shattered today. Fell asleep on the train and then nearly fell asleep at my desk. So I suspect this FD could be a bit difficult.

I have some porridge in my desk drawer that comes in at 230 cals. And with my planned dinner being about 400 cals, I may do that and be happy with being a bit over, rather than getting to 4pm and hitting the chocolate to try to combat the tiredness!

Thanks Bigchoc - Dh makes protein drinks and tries to tempt me :)

Well done Stripy I'm at that BMI now so almost back within the healthy range. Once my appetite returns properly my loss will probably slow down now too.

That's fab squiggle Well done!

Moo stay at it. Big yes to logging on MFP - I was seriously shocked when I done it before and I was following a 'healthy' eating plan at the time. For one week log and weigh everything that goes in your mouth.

Good luck with the FD and the C25K Mrswhiskers

vvv I hope the rest of your Fd goes quickly (without the 4pm chocolate attack:))

Good luck to the Monday fasters !

That sounds sensible, vvv Best to aim within 650 cals and keep strictly to NO snacks, NO choc.

MrsWhiskers If you are running on an FD, then fasted training accelerates fat burning.
Eat afterwards as soon as you can, to avoid catabolism which could leave you shattered the next day - might be your problem ? Your body needs fuel for muscle repair and to replenish empty glycogen stores.
If you train mornings, I recommend 250-400 cals for lunch as your main FD meal and the remainder for a small supper.

Thanks for the tips bigchocfrenzy I am quite new to exercise so am still learning. I do find that by midweek my muscles become really weak which is one reason I switched from calorie counting to 5:2 (before I learned the additional health benefits of 5:2) so that I would be able to eat more to fuel my exercise.

I'm not sure if today counts as a proper FD as I still feel the remnants of my late night sunday night gluttony lying heavily in my stomach

trying a fast day ... good luck other monday fasters

Hope all the other Monday fasters are doing well :) just did a 15 minute fit arms section and feel amazing! Working out on a FD feels good. When DS wakes up from his nap lunch will be eggs. This is much easier than last time already - the exercise definitely helps.

Hello fellow fasters. I'm trying to stay strong with half a teaspoon of marmite and half a teaspoon of miso in hot water. I can't say I like it very much, but after such a wobbly week I need to stay on the straight and narrow. I hope everyone else is having a good day - first weekday of BST.

Thanks. I'm following LC bootcamp diet too which sort of doesn't work with calorie counting. But perhaps I should try logging in everything...

The porridge was a great idea.

Just a very small pot and probably a bit too much for days when I'm being ultra careful, but it seems to have helped me get over my weariness. AND it kept me in the office, so no temptations.

So, depending on what I manage to pick up in the supermarket on the way home (plan was a tuna and cous cous steam pot that comes in around 400 cals, but I may find something a little lower) I'll either be at 650 cals or under for the day.

moo On starting low carb, many folk have a high initial loss because water, that was formerly retained due to carbs, is released.
However, this only lasts a couple of week. Thereafter, contrary to what some diets may claim, only a very few people can lose on any kind of WOE without a calorie deficit.
The exceptions - usually on low carb or IF - are because the prolonged periods without many carbs either cut out foods that the person can't properly handle, or correct a problem with insulin metabolism.

The vast majority of the population, as proved by countless scientific studies, require a weekly calorie deficit of about 3000 cals per lb loss.
Few people - and hardly any women - achieve this via exercise alone.

All weight loss methods are basically different ways of obtaining a calorie deficit.
Folk with insulin insensitivity - those best suited to lower carb - find it easier to achieve this by cutting out most starchy foods and fruit.
The so-called "metabolic advantage" of low carb does exist for these folk, but usually only up to 10% TDEE, i.e. typically 200 cals per day.

If you have been low carbing for some time without losing additional weight, then you are one of the majority who need a calorie deficit as well as low carb.
So, as a first step, I recommend you calculate TDEE and mfp for a week to see if you are exceeding this.

Hello, I'd like to join you all please! I'm on my first FD today and am planning to do 5:2 combined with 16:8, and keeping to a TDEE of around 1800 calories on non-fast days. I'm 5'5", weighed 146lb this morning (gained a bit over an indulgent weekend) with a waist of 33" and 34% body fat . I have several aims - goal weight of around 124-133lbs, with waist of 29 and body fat of 27ish%. I'd be happy to achieve one of these but all three would be amazing!

Today's food is all planned out - am about to have lunch of small greek salad and half-pot of glorious skinny soup. Then king prawns & courgette in home made arrabiata sauce. Plus milk in tea - should come to 476 calories. Then next FD will be Thursday. Eating only between 12 and 8pm. Let's see how I go...

Welcome Whippets Sounds a sensible plan

Good luck with your 1st FD

Tip for exercisers: A double espresso or other high-caffeine drink (200mg) about 15 mins before training. It helps mobilise body fat to be available as fuel, i.e. helps fat-burning and gives an energy boost.
Especially useful for FD training, when you need to obtain more fuel from your fat reserves.

Hi everyone,

Catching up with this thread takes a while if you don't do it regularly! Sorry for not responding to anyone, I do read all posts though. Must get better at this.

I'm finally over my cold. My cough got worse and then disappeared almost overnight I really hope it's the last one this year! Still have a bit of a sore throat, but I can live with that.

I'm back to fasting, it's a first FD today, had 3 teas and some soup, dinner will be oven baked salmon and veg.

I found that now I'm not that hungry in the mornings anymore, so I've been eating my breakfast later or just having tea. Also I think I've been better at no snacking lately. Haven't cut it out yet, but less of it.

I'm planning on giving up chocolate, cakes and biscuits in April. I hope OH does the same, except for him it will be beer I will allow myself 3 days where I can have them, so Easter, OH's b-day and whenever AF arrives I hope she won't

Good luck everyone!

Hi, just catching up on the thread. Always reassuring to read about everyone's ups and downs. Need to have an on track week this week to counteract the inevitable wobbles over the school hold and a week away. Monday FD going well and I limited my weekend splurge to 2 days not 3 so feeling positive.

Big Choc - Thanks for that, its very interesting. I have been really faffing around with the LCing loosing and regaining the same 4/5lbs again and again which is why I came to try the 5:2 aswell. I wonder if i just am eating too much fat (which over on BC they say isn't really possible) but clearly something is not working. I'm going to try to log everything and will try doing 16:8 as well as the 5:2 as I find that once I start eating for the day I am much hungrier. FD today and doing fine. It amazes me that I can not eat, when on other days I can barely stop...

Whippets, your start weight is pretty much my goal !

Oh how times have changed..... I never thought that I would get this big. I'm 174lbs, and Ive no idea what my real start weight was after I had DS as my old scales were weighing really light. According to them I've lost 1 stone this year and I'd lost one last year.

I am so desperate to loose this weight.